# Amnesty International: US has made the world a more dangerous place **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 27, 2004, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-us-has-made-the-world-a-more-dangerous-place/247288 "2004-05-27T03:20:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![borax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/838e76/32.png) [@borax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borax)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-us-has-made-the-world-a-more-dangerous-place/247288/1 "2004-05-27T03:20:48Z")
Here is the press release from the Amnesty International web site: [http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGPOL100162004](http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGPOL100162004) The actual message: [http://web.amnesty.org/report2004/message-eng](http://web.amnesty.org/report2004/message-eng) The meaty parts ( the “Baghdad tragedy” refers to the death of UN Commissioner Vieira de Mello from a truck bombing) : > [@](#): > > The Baghdad tragedy was a clear reminder (though by no means the only one) of the global threat posed by those who are ready to use any means to further their political objectives. We condemn their acts unequivocally. They are guilty of abuse of human rights and violation of international humanitarian law, sometimes amounting to crimes against humanity and war crimes. They must be brought to trial but – and here we part company with some governments – in accordance with standards of international law. > … > There is no path to sustainable security except through respect for human rights. The global security agenda promulgated by the US Administration is bankrupt of vision and bereft of principle. Sacrificing human rights in the name of security at home, turning a blind eye to abuses abroad, and using pre-emptive military force where and when it chooses have neither increased security nor ensured liberty. > … > The USA and its allies purported to fight the war in Iraq to protect human rights – but openly eroded human rights to win the “war on terror”. The war in Iraq was launched ostensibly to reduce the threat of weapons of mass destruction, yet the world is awash with small arms and conventional weapons that kill more than half a million people a year. To make matters worse, in the name of combating the so-called “war on terror”, many countries have relaxed controls on exports to governments that are known to have appalling human rights records, among them Colombia, Indonesia, Israel and Pakistan. The uncontrolled trade in arms puts us all at greater risk in peace and war. Has the “War on Terror” made the world less safe? ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-us-has-made-the-world-a-more-dangerous-place/247288/2 "2004-05-27T04:13:21Z")
> [@borax](#): > > Here is the press release from the Amnesty International web site: Glad to see that my montly donation is being used to cite the obvious. > [@](#): > > Has the “War on Terror” made the world less safe? Depends on where you live and which side you’re on, now doesn’t it? “Safe” is a subjective term. Millions of people are currently “safe” from one danger, but suddenly “not safe” from other dangers - prime examples of this are the virtual anarchy are warlord-ruled areas of Afghanistan and Iraq. Also, by “safe” do you mean “better off?” Certainly, a radical Muslim extremist in Iraq is “safer” and arguably “better off” now. That also means that a secularist Iraqi is “less safe” and arguably “worse off” now. As an American, I don’t feel any more safe. In fact, I feel less safe, because now there are a lot more pissed off people out there, with a lot more justification to their cause. If some radical Iraqi group launches a retaliation attack on an American city, who the hell are we to complain about it? ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-us-has-made-the-world-a-more-dangerous-place/247288/3 "2004-05-27T06:21:22Z")
> [@borax](#): > > Has the “War on Terror” made the world less safe? Short-term, yes. Long-term, ask us in 2010. Bush has always said the WOT is a long-term job. The news here is that AI is willing to damage their credibility as an impartial source. Which, for those of us think there are no impartial sources, is a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-us-has-made-the-world-a-more-dangerous-place/247288/4 "2004-05-27T06:23:14Z")
Republican smear campaign against Amnesty International will begin in five… four… three… ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-us-has-made-the-world-a-more-dangerous-place/247288/5 "2004-05-27T07:59:10Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Republican smear campaign against Amnesty International will begin in five… four… three… I disagree. There seems to be two ways of dealing with things like this these days. One, smear campaign. Two, pretend like it doesn’t exist, and change the subject as quickly and vehemently as possible (or just outright ignore it). I’d bet on the latter for this one. ---
**Author:** ![Thaumaturge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/858c86/32.png) [@Thaumaturge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thaumaturge)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-us-has-made-the-world-a-more-dangerous-place/247288/6 "2004-05-27T08:21:51Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Short-term, yes. Long-term, ask us in 2010. Bush has always said the WOT is a long-term job. I’m sure Bush’s puppet handlers would love for there to be a perpetual war from now into eternity, it’s good for business after all. Destabilizing things in Iraq while we already had our fingers in a dozen other pots only helps to ensure this. > [@](#): > > The news here is that AI is willing to damage their credibility as an impartial source. Which, for those of us think there are no impartial sources, is a good thing. I fail to see how AI denouncing what happened in Iraq makes them a partial source. They are here to denounce _all_ violations of human dignity on this planet, not ignore those that are not politicaly expedient for the US. They are merely stating the facts, that the current situation in Iraq does alot of harm. Until you show me that AI does not denounce human rights violations done by other countries, I’ll assume you are talking out of your arse. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-us-has-made-the-world-a-more-dangerous-place/247288/7 "2004-05-28T12:19:05Z")
Another group making the same basic point. [Occupation made world less safe, pro-war institute says](http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=524939) > [@](#): > > The US and British occupation of Iraq has accelerated recruitment to the ranks of Osama bin Laden’s terrorist network and made the world a less safe place, according to a leading London-based think-tank. > > The assessment, by the International Institute of Strategic Studies (IISS), states that the occupation has become “a potent global recruitment pretext” for al-Qa’ida, which now has more than 18,000 militants ready to strike Western targets. > …snip… > > The IISS has strong establishment links, with former US and British government officials among its members. The Foreign Office contributed £100,000 towards the setting up of its headquarters in central London, and Baroness Thatcher and Lord Robertson of Port Ellen, then secretary general of Nato, attended the opening. ---
**Author:** ![marky33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@marky33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marky33)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-us-has-made-the-world-a-more-dangerous-place/247288/8 "2004-05-28T12:35:02Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Short-term, yes. I’m sure Spaniards (Madrid bombing) and Indonesian traders/Australian holidaymakers (Bali bombing) would agree. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-us-has-made-the-world-a-more-dangerous-place/247288/9 "2004-05-28T12:37:58Z")
> [@](#): > > They [AI] are here to denounce all violations of human dignity on this planet This is true. But there would be no way to run an operation that included urban fighting and occupation that would pass their muster. Such things will always entail some violations of human dignity. Thus the justifiable conclusion that these violations are beyond the pale and that the end result is a more dangerous place for all for a long time to come, gets discounted by the fact that you knew AI would say that no matter what. This is not defense of this whole debacle, just a critique of the effectiveness of AI as an advocacy group when their bar is set so very very high. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-us-has-made-the-world-a-more-dangerous-place/247288/10 "2004-05-28T12:44:09Z")
From the AI statement in the OP: “The global security agenda promulgated by the US Administration is bankrupt of vision and bereft of principle. Sacrificing human rights in the name of security at home, turning a blind eye to abuses abroad, and using pre-emptive military force where and when it chooses have neither increased security nor ensured liberty.” From the AI mission statement on its website: “AI is independent of any government, political ideology, economic interest or religion. It does not support or oppose any government or political system, nor does it support or oppose the views of the victims whose rights it seeks to protect. It is concerned solely with the impartial protection of human rights.” ---
**Author:** ![marky33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@marky33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marky33)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-us-has-made-the-world-a-more-dangerous-place/247288/11 "2004-05-28T14:10:44Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > From the AI statement in the OP: > > “The global security agenda promulgated by the US Administration is bankrupt of vision and bereft of principle. Sacrificing human rights in the name of security at home, turning a blind eye to abuses abroad, and using pre-emptive military force where and when it chooses have neither increased security nor ensured liberty.” > From the AI mission statement on its website: > > “AI is independent of any government, political ideology, economic interest or religion. It does not support or oppose any government or political system, nor does it support or oppose the views of the victims whose rights it seeks to protect. It is concerned solely with the impartial protection of human rights.” Your point being? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-us-has-made-the-world-a-more-dangerous-place/247288/12 "2004-05-28T14:23:24Z")
> [@marky33](#): > > Your point being? It should be obvious. AI’s statement as noted in the OP makes sweeping conclusions about the failure of U.S. policy, going well beyond condemnation of human rights violations, and does so in what will be viewed as an election-year attempt to influence U.S. politics. In doing so it has arguably violated its stated mission and compromised its image of nonpartisanship. I am not in major disagreement with its conclusions (for instance, I think the U.S. security picture has worsened beyond the immediate term thanks to Administration policies (or lack of them). ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-us-has-made-the-world-a-more-dangerous-place/247288/13 "2004-05-28T14:42:17Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > It should be obvious. > > AI’s statement as noted in the OP makes sweeping conclusions about the failure of U.S. policy, going well beyond condemnation of human rights violations, and does so in what will be viewed as an election-year attempt to influence U.S. politics. In doing so it has arguably violated its stated mission and compromised its image of nonpartisanship. > I am not in major disagreement with its conclusions (for instance, I think the U.S. security picture has worsened beyond the immediate term thanks to Administration policies (or lack of them). No - it’s doing its job and coming to the obvious conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![marky33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@marky33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marky33)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-us-has-made-the-world-a-more-dangerous-place/247288/14 "2004-05-28T15:17:17Z")
I have to agree with **tagos**. And that this is an election year should neither persuade nor dissuade AI from saying its piece. Protecting the US’ feelings is not the same as being impartial. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-us-has-made-the-world-a-more-dangerous-place/247288/15 "2004-05-28T16:19:09Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > AI’s statement as noted in the OP makes sweeping conclusions about the failure of U.S. policy, going well beyond condemnation of human rights violations, and does so in **what will be viewed as an election-year attempt to influence U.S. politics**. In doing so it has arguably violated its stated mission and compromised its image of nonpartisanship. Well, you did acknowledge it’s “arguable”. Note, though, that for them to stay \*silent \* one year out of four would \*also \* “be viewed as an election-year attempt to influence U.S. politics”, although it would be different people doing the viewing. Wouldn’t a non-partisan organization say what they think needs to be said in \*disregard \* of electoral schedules? And isn’t that what they’re doing? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-us-has-made-the-world-a-more-dangerous-place/247288/16 "2004-05-28T16:29:08Z")
I still see nothing in AI’s stated mission that relates to opposing military operations that do not have official U.N. sanction, or to making conclusions about the success or failure of a nation’s policies - whether or not it’s an election year. If the organization is intent on broadening its focus to that extent, it also risks diffusing its impact and creating perceptions that it engages in politics. This news release potentially will be more harmful to AI than it will to GWB. ---
**Author:** ![Alien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/57b2e6/32.png) [@Alien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alien)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-us-has-made-the-world-a-more-dangerous-place/247288/17 "2004-05-28T23:38:16Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > It should be obvious. > > AI’s statement as noted in the OP makes sweeping conclusions about the failure of U.S. policy, going well beyond condemnation of human rights violations, and does so in what will be viewed as an election-year attempt to influence U.S. politics. In doing so it has arguably violated its stated mission and compromised its image of nonpartisanship. I’m sure the report has nothing to do with the upcoming election, actually I think that would turn out counter-productive. As stated by other posters, AI doesn’t differentiate between Country A abusing 1000 people or Country B abusing 5 people. They call abuse when they see it, period. Hell, even Scandinavian countries gets criticized for some of the things they do, and they don’t get around much. What’s new is Bush’s doctrine about pre-emptive use of military force, which I suspect has factored in this time around. FWIW, AI repeatedly condemned Saddam’s regime and they did so long before the press or the West paid him any attention. It’s not like they say that the US is as worse - of course they aren’t. btw, Bill Schulz, executive director of Amnesty International USA, was online with the Post a couple of days ago taking questions from readers about this years report, including several questions similar to those in this thread: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58376-2004May26.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58376-2004May26.html) ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-us-has-made-the-world-a-more-dangerous-place/247288/18 "2004-05-28T23:59:28Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > This news release potentially will be more harmful to AI than it will to GWB. Oh, come on. Anyone who is going to listen to AI will see this as normal, anyone who isn’t going to listen to AI doesn’t matter anyway. It is hard NOT to politicize when you’re talking about human rights abuses. I’m sure you especially wouldn’t have given a damn if AI had released a report on Saddam Hussein during an Iraqi election year. Do you expect the world to stop spinning because it is an American election year? ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2004, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-us-has-made-the-world-a-more-dangerous-place/247288/19 "2004-05-29T00:05:21Z")
I have to admit that I have not read a lot of AI press releases. Can you guys give me one example of a political paragraph like the one **Jackmannii** quoted? Do they often make sweeping statements about an administration? I thought they mostly concentrated on specific human rights abuses. Was I wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Alien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/57b2e6/32.png) [@Alien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alien)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2004, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-us-has-made-the-world-a-more-dangerous-place/247288/20 "2004-05-29T00:14:00Z")
> [@pervert](#): > > I have to admit that I have not read a lot of AI press releases. Can you guys give me one example of a political paragraph like the one **Jackmannii** quoted? Do they often make sweeping statements about an administration? I thought they mostly concentrated on specific human rights abuses. Was I wrong? You should read the link I included in my previous post. But no, they don’t have any comments or official viewpoints about administrations, other than criticizing those who fail to address human rights. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-us-has-made-the-world-a-more-dangerous-place/247288.md?page=2)