# Amnesty Intl. report says USA does not respect Human Rights. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 28, 2003, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-intl-report-says-usa-does-not-respect-human-rights/177997 "2003-05-28T12:52:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-intl-report-says-usa-does-not-respect-human-rights/177997/21 "2003-05-28T16:47:11Z")
I cna’t see any legal arguments in the ink you cited: > [@](#): > > Thus, not according them a full set of POW privileges does not reflect a compassion deficit on our part. Rather, it is an important symbolic act which underscores their status as the enemies of humanity calling them enemies of humanity is hardly a legal argument. It is clear that the US IS acting illegally under the Geneva Convention, unlawful combatant is a made up term, as which laws did they break by fighting for the Taleban? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-intl-report-says-usa-does-not-respect-human-rights/177997/22 "2003-05-28T16:51:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MC Master of Cermonies \* > \*\*which laws did they break by fighting for the Taleban? \*\* Failure to wear uniforms, for one. > [@](#): > > Apprehended in Pakistan, serving under no flag, and having repudiated the laws of war, Mohammed is rightly considered an “unlawful combatant.” Over the centuries, an entire body of laws of war was designed to delegitimize and suppress unlawful combatants. Thus, captured al Qaeda and Taliban operatives are not due the rights and privileges of lawful prisoners of war under the Geneva Conventions. They are entitled to humane treatment but can be detained in less comfortable conditions than POWs, and can be interrogated more vigorously–so as to obtain military and intelligence information. They may be held, without a criminal trial, for the duration of the conflict. > > In addition, they can be harshly punished for their unlawful resort to force, up to and including the death penalty. Equally, those al Qaeda and Taliban operatives still at large may be lawfully attacked at any time by any legitimate military means. Although they must be allowed to surrender (without condition) if they ask for the opportunity, there is no need for American forces to attempt to capture them when they may more easily be killed or wounded. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-intl-report-says-usa-does-not-respect-human-rights/177997/23 "2003-05-28T16:53:52Z")
I’m not really familiar with how AI works, just seen snippets of their articles from time to time. I would give them credence if they routinely published something like a 10 Most Wanted List, which outlines the countries with the most severe human rights abuses. Just seems like they’re spreading themselves too thin if they’re focusing on “reports of police brutality” instead of seeking our actually instances of major human rights abuses, of which there are helaciously many in this world. Every country has some area that could be improved. I’d probably create a few categories along the lines of: 1, Human Rights basket cases (eg: the former Iraq) 2. Much improvement needed (eg: Cuba) 3. Above average, but still lacking in some key areas (eg: Turkey) 4. Overall a good a record (eg: Canada) Trying to determine if, for example, France or the US have more or fewer human rights abuses is a pretty meaningless endeavor. The world should be so lucky that every person on earth lived under a gov’t like one in either of those countries. That’s the message AI should be getting out there. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-intl-report-says-usa-does-not-respect-human-rights/177997/24 "2003-05-28T16:55:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Calculus of Logic \* > Anywho, i cannot explain away or justify the Gitmo treatment but i do consider it to only be a minimal/moderate human rights abuse, not a major one. I guess you are judging by numbers and you have a point but I am concerned with the fact that some things are even done and even acceptable. When a woman in some third world country is condemned to be stoned to death because she had a child out of wedlock, the entire world is outraged, and rightly so. The fact that it is only one woman does not detract from the fact that the practice is wrong. But, of course, it is better if “only” one woman suffers this than if many suffer it. But the mere fact that a country allows one single person to suffer a wrong means the country is condoning or even perpretrating that wrong and that is also wrong. > [@](#): > > “Freedom and democracy made significant worldwide progress in 2002 despite threats posed by global terrorism, according to a major survey released today by Freedom House.” I am glad to hear that. Things must be getting better in some other places. I guess my point is that just saying there are worse places is not a good excuse in my eyes. I do believe human rights are rights above any government and every country and government should strive to that ideal. The fact that the situation in the USA has deteriorated is not good and should be corrected. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-intl-report-says-usa-does-not-respect-human-rights/177997/25 "2003-05-28T16:59:07Z")
\>\> Failure to wear uniforms, for one. december, you realize American soldiers have been doing the same thing in Afghanistan and in Iraq? ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-intl-report-says-usa-does-not-respect-human-rights/177997/26 "2003-05-28T17:00:03Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions: > > (a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates; > > (b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; > > © That of carrying arms openly; > > (d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war. Note: nothing about uniforms That paragraph is about the apprehension of an individual known al-Qaida operative. ---
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-intl-report-says-usa-does-not-respect-human-rights/177997/27 "2003-05-28T17:03:49Z")
You are quite wrong, **december**. The piece you site - it’s an opinion piece, not a legal opinion - goes to the issue of whether a competent tribunal would find these prisoners to be POWs. **As I said** , that’s debatable. But, **as I said** , what’s _not_ debatable is that the Conventions say that until found not to be a POW **by a competent tribunal** , persons held must be afforded POW status. You will note that that is exactly the point made in the Amnesty International report. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-intl-report-says-usa-does-not-respect-human-rights/177997/28 "2003-05-28T17:07:34Z")
I should of added these other catergories: > [@](#): > > 1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces. … > > …3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power. > > 1. Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization from the armed forces which they accompany, who shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the annexed model. > > 2. Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law. > > 3. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war. As you can see they fall into several of these catergories. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-intl-report-says-usa-does-not-respect-human-rights/177997/29 "2003-05-28T17:29:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*Failure to wear uniforms, for one. \*\* This is circular logic. We can’t declare war on non-military personel and then call them “unlawful combatants” on the other hand. WE attacked THEM, after all. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-intl-report-says-usa-does-not-respect-human-rights/177997/30 "2003-05-28T17:38:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*AFAIK they have better treatment than any group of prisoners in history. \*\* And how do you know this? Ever heard of Denmark? [Does this sound “better” than any group in “history”?](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1766037.stm) Or is that statement merely uneducated hyperbole? > [@](#): > > **They weren’t arrested; they were captured during a battle.** This is a semantic quibble. I think you think they mean “criminal arrest”. They were detained, nonetheless. This falls under the term “arrest”. > [@](#): > > **Since when have fighters caught during a battle ever been provided with these things?** If they’re POWs, maybe not. If they’re criminals, then they do. But they’re neither, are they? They’re some fabricated definition that, while it may just about scrape through US law, is pretty damned unjust. > [@](#): > > **However, the prisoners’ level of care fully meets the Geneva Convention requirement for POWs.** Please show me where this is agreed. Since the [ICRC itself](http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/5G2GT7?OpenDocument) doesn’t release this information, please tell me how you found this out. > [@](#): > > **"There were conerns"??!! How can one evaluate such a vague statement, in the passive voice? Who was concerned and with what grounds?** Well, the use of the passive voice here is presumably for brevity, but I can give you the subjects of the sentence: the international media, AI themselves, other Human Rights Watch, me, and others. And you know what the concerns are: handing over of prisoners to countries that have repressive and torturous means of extracting information that the US prefers not to use, and turning a blind eye to those methods. > [@](#): > > **How many of the 1200 were deprived of safeguards under international law? In what way were they so deprived?** The clue’s in the question - “incommunicado” for a start. Nobody knows they’re there. Nobody knows what’s happening to them. That sounds like deprivation to me. > [@](#): > > **And, properly so.** That’s a matter of opinion. I find it barbaric, and that is also AI’s stance. > [@](#): > > **No doubt, somewhere in the United States there have been cases of police brutality, deaths in custody and ill-treatment in prisons and jails. That’s true of every prison system that ever existed. _The proper question is whether the US record is abnormal._** The statement I’ve highlighted is utter, utter bullshit, **december**. If every country in the world were fucking up thus, it would still be Amnesty’s duty to point it out. That’s why the group exists. To assist human rights _across the board_. > [@](#): > > **AI has a hard-on for the United States. Too bad. Otherwise they could be a useful organization.** I still don’t get this - do you read AI’s reports on other countries? Read the one on Irish jails, that **yojimbo** mentioned. On other Western countries? They’re critical of _everywhere_ that’s got low standards of human rights. I just don’t get why you think this. Could you or **smiling bandit** give us examples of AI turning a blind eye to abuses that don’t “fit their political agenda”. Or is it, simplistically, because it’s your country that’s being criticised that you perceive bias? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-intl-report-says-usa-does-not-respect-human-rights/177997/31 "2003-05-28T18:04:03Z")
> [@](#): > > How many of the 1200 were deprived of safeguards under international law? In what way were they so deprived? I’d say that cutting off all contact with their families is pretty damned deprivative and cruel. Even death row inmates are allowed to see their families. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-intl-report-says-usa-does-not-respect-human-rights/177997/32 "2003-05-28T18:11:28Z")
December, Amnesty International has a well-earned reputation for giving solid evidence of their findings. I don’t know of an organization that is more respected world wide. Your links are very vague. But do let us know when these organizations have won the Nobel Peace Prize. If you aren’t aware of widespread use of police brutality, then you have been living in an ivory tower far away from inner city streets. I could tell you horror stories. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-intl-report-says-usa-does-not-respect-human-rights/177997/33 "2003-05-28T18:25:25Z")
> [@](#): > > AI has a hard-on for the United States. Got a citation to support that assertion? No, of course you don’t. That never stopped you before, right? AI, as its very purpose, has a hard-on for human-rights abuses. > [@](#): > > The world should be so lucky that every person on earth lived under a gov’t like one in either of those countries. That’s the message AI should be getting out there. This argument makes no sense. Amnesty International’s mission is to highlight human rights abuses, not serve as as PR flack for the Greatest Country on Earth™. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-intl-report-says-usa-does-not-respect-human-rights/177997/34 "2003-05-28T18:38:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by El\_Kabong \* > This argument makes no sense. Amnesty International’s mission is to highlight human rights abuses, not serve as as PR flack for the Greatest Country on Earth™. Many things make no sense when taken out of context. You picked one sentence out of my post and missed the main thrust. Pointing out human rights abuses is nice. If that’s all AI wants to do, then I guess they have accomplished that goal. Doing something about improving the situation in the world re: human rights is another thing entirely. In order to do that, it would make sense to focus ones efforts where they are needed most. Once a country reaches a high level of human rights standard (you can define that however you want), you become more of a gadfly by nitpicking. Go ahead and do a human rights audit for all countries, but use the 80/20 rule if you want to make an impact. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-intl-report-says-usa-does-not-respect-human-rights/177997/35 "2003-05-28T18:38:36Z")
Oh, yeah, forgot this. It only took a a couple seconds to locate AI’s [facts and figures](http://web.amnesty.org/pages/AboutAI_facts2002) summary for 2002. Look toward the bottom of the page. Note that the USA appears in four categories of the eight listed: “tortured or ill-treated”, “arbitrarily arrested and detained”, “sentenced to death” and “executions carried out”. No one can plausibly deny that there were events in the USA in 2002 that fit those categories, and the US is only one of dozens of nations listed. So where’s that ‘hard-on for the United States’, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-intl-report-says-usa-does-not-respect-human-rights/177997/36 "2003-05-28T18:40:04Z")
My aplogies; mistyped the url. Heres the correct one: [http://web.amnesty.org/pages/AboutAI\_facts](http://web.amnesty.org/pages/AboutAI_facts) ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-intl-report-says-usa-does-not-respect-human-rights/177997/37 "2003-05-28T18:56:02Z")
Since Amnesty International is worldwide, it can focus on many countries at one time – and it does. Dopers will have a difficult time finding much support for an anti-AI stance by any reputable organization. Why did the Pentagon distribute manuals obout torture techniques to the U.S. Army? Why were soldiers in Central and South America trained in torture techniques at Fort Benning, Georgia? Such horrors did not begin with the current President, but I wonder if they continue. (They stopped issuing the manuals but did not confiscate the ones already out there.) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-intl-report-says-usa-does-not-respect-human-rights/177997/38 "2003-05-28T18:56:43Z")
Kabong: Let’s take one example from your cite: “Torture”: Having a few instances of torture\* by a few rogue law enforcment officers is quite different than when it is a state sanctioned activity. If you don’t distinguish this, then you end up with somehting like that summary, which lumps coutries like Switzerland , the US and Australia in with countries like Sudan, N. Korea, and Myanmar. Meaningless. \*for the sake of argument, let’s assume that torture does happen in the US from time to time. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-intl-report-says-usa-does-not-respect-human-rights/177997/39 "2003-05-28T18:57:49Z")
Here’s the summary I’m talking about: > [@](#): > > People reportedly tortured or ill-treated by security forces, police or other state authorities in 106 countries: > Afghanistan, Albania, Algeria, Angola, Argentina, Armenia, Australia, Austria, Azerbaijan, Bahamas, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Belarus, Belgium, Belize, Bolivia, Brazil, Bulgaria, Burundi, Cambodia, Cameroon, CAR, Chad, Chile, China, Colombia, Democratic Republic of Congo, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Egypt, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, Fiji, France, Georgia, Germany, Greece, Guatemala, Guyana, Haiti, Hungary, India, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Israel/OT, Italy, Jamaica, Japan, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kenya, Korea (North), Korea (South), Kuwait, Laos, Lebanon, Liberia, Libya, Macedonia, Madagascar, Malaysia, Mauritania, Mauritius, Mexico, Moldova, Morocco/Western Sahara, Mozambique, Myanmar, Nepal, Nigeria, Pakistan, Palestinian Authority, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Portugal, Qatar, Romania, Russian Federation, Rwanda, Saudi Arabia, South Africa, Spain, Sri Lanka, St Lucia, Sudan, Switzerland, Syria, Tajikistan, Thailand, Togo, Trinidad and Tobago, Tunisia, Turkey, Turkmenistan, Ukraine, United Arab Emirates, USA, Uzbekistan, Venezuela, Yemen and Zimbabwe. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-intl-report-says-usa-does-not-respect-human-rights/177997/40 "2003-05-28T19:12:47Z")
What, is the US suddenly excempt from the rules of the Geneva? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-intl-report-says-usa-does-not-respect-human-rights/177997.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-intl-report-says-usa-does-not-respect-human-rights/177997.md?page=3)