# Amnesty or Deportation: What would you do if you were Illegal Immigrant Tsar? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 10, 2007, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-or-deportation-what-would-you-do-if-you-were-illegal-immigrant-tsar/407499 "2007-06-10T20:48:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2007, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-or-deportation-what-would-you-do-if-you-were-illegal-immigrant-tsar/407499/1 "2007-06-10T20:48:44Z")
As I’ve mentioned [before](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=370226&highlight=immigration+tsar) , the notion of how the U.S. should respond to the illegal immigration problem is one of the toughest areas for me to decide upon and one of those issues in which I’m embarassed to say I tend to agree with whichever well-informed and well-spoken person spoke last. My empathy is with the aliens, my practicality is with the law, and how you’d deport that many millions of people is beyond me but at the same time I think its ridiculous to grant amnesty to people who have flouted our laws. So I’ll admit my ignorance and indecision in the OP rather than reveal it through my opinions. Instead I’ll hope to learn from your posts. What would you do if you were given control of this problem and all reasonable government backing of reasonable propositions. The one thing I will say is that the Mexican government owes the U.S. government an indemnity for their publication of _Guía del Migrante Mexicano_, a guide to border crossing. (It’s available several places online but I’ll you choose a [Google-op](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rls=GGGL%2CGGGL%3A2006-38%2CGGGL%3Aen&q=Gu%C3%ADa+del+Migrante+Mexicano+&btnG=Search) as the best links are to sites some Dopers may find objectionable.) And I’ll also say that the people I know who are most opposed to amnesty aren’t rednecks or super-ardent conservatives, but legal aliens and naturalized citizens who paid fortunes and waited years to become American citizens or permanent residents legally. Please discuss. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2007, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-or-deportation-what-would-you-do-if-you-were-illegal-immigrant-tsar/407499/2 "2007-06-10T20:57:12Z")
[QUOTE=Sampiro] And I’ll also say that the people I know who are most opposed to amnesty aren’t rednecks or super-ardent conservatives, but legal aliens and naturalized citizens who paid fortunes and waited years to become American citizens or permanent residents legally. [/QUOTE] Which leads up to what I’d do; I’d make it much easier to immigrate legally. They want in, we want them in - we say we don’t but actions speak louder than words - so raise the ceiling, drop or lower the price and don’t make it take years. America benefits from immigration, legal and otherwise; we don’t want ( non-political ) criminals, but outside of that anyone with the drive to move to a new country is likely to be useful. If anyone is hurt, it’s the countries the immmigrants come from. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2007, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-or-deportation-what-would-you-do-if-you-were-illegal-immigrant-tsar/407499/3 "2007-06-10T21:03:02Z")
[QUOTE=Sampiro] The one thing I will say is that the Mexican government owes the U.S. government an indemnity for their publication of _Guía del Migrante Mexicano_, a guide to border crossing. (It’s available several places online but I’ll you choose a [Google-op](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rls=GGGL%2CGGGL%3A2006-38%2CGGGL%3Aen&q=Gu%C3%ADa+del+Migrante+Mexicano+&btnG=Search) as the best links are to sites some Dopers may find objectionable.) [/quote] I agree a little here, except that I realize that not having that guide can lead to many more deaths at the border. > [@](#): > > And I’ll also say that the people I know who are most opposed to amnesty aren’t rednecks or super-ardent conservatives, but legal aliens and naturalized citizens who paid fortunes and waited years to become American citizens or permanent residents legally. Not in my experience; besides, currently the proposed bill we have right now in congress is not amnesty. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2007, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-or-deportation-what-would-you-do-if-you-were-illegal-immigrant-tsar/407499/4 "2007-06-10T21:30:59Z")
I would establish an electronic means for employers to verify SSN’s provided by employees, indemnify employers against identification errors that might expose them to lawsuits by employees, then establish onerous penalties for employers who continue to employ illegal workers; seize their bank accounts, vehicles, machinery , inventory and real estate. Illegal aliens will deport themselves. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2007, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-or-deportation-what-would-you-do-if-you-were-illegal-immigrant-tsar/407499/5 "2007-06-10T21:53:02Z")
I would establish a harder line against immigration now, with the addition of options to let workers come across for seasonal work. Current illegal immigrants could get citizenship - but if they don’t, or don’t study and don’t learn enough English to get by, they will be ejected. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2007, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-or-deportation-what-would-you-do-if-you-were-illegal-immigrant-tsar/407499/6 "2007-06-10T21:57:49Z")
Amnesty for anyone free of disease or a criminal record. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2007, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-or-deportation-what-would-you-do-if-you-were-illegal-immigrant-tsar/407499/7 "2007-06-10T22:09:00Z")
Amnesty for all but serious criminals. Instantaneous Social Security number check system It’s important to note that most opposed to amnesty are simply bigots. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-or-deportation-what-would-you-do-if-you-were-illegal-immigrant-tsar/407499/8 "2007-06-11T01:52:55Z")
Amnesty-by-fee. That five grand isn’t a bad idea: a _lot_ of places would do loans, which would be paid back by hard working people. Eff sending them back, it wouldn’t work anyhow. After that? Seal the border a bit harder, make la migra work on the _remaining_ illegals who don’t want to be good citizens, send the criminals back, and start a program to help Mexico improve itself. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-or-deportation-what-would-you-do-if-you-were-illegal-immigrant-tsar/407499/9 "2007-06-11T03:15:05Z")
[QUOTE=Sampiro] AMy empathy is with the aliens, my practicality is with the law, and how you’d deport that many millions of people is beyond me but at the same time I think its ridiculous to grant amnesty to people who have flouted our laws. [/QUOTE] But that’s what amnesty is. You don’t grant amnesty to people who haven’t broken laws. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-or-deportation-what-would-you-do-if-you-were-illegal-immigrant-tsar/407499/10 "2007-06-11T03:35:08Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Amnesty for anyone free of disease or a criminal record. [/QUOTE] Couldn’t have said it better myself. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-or-deportation-what-would-you-do-if-you-were-illegal-immigrant-tsar/407499/11 "2007-06-11T03:48:59Z")
I have yet to hear any explanation for how it would be possible to deport the 8 to 12 million immigrants currently here without legal status. The government cannot monitor every single employer and real estate owner. There no Constitutional validity for such a thing, and the government is not competent enough to handle such a massive task. Therefore I say that we offer a blanket amnesty to them all, conditional only on speaking English and demonstrating basic knowledge about our laws. Those who have committed crimes should be dealt with just as we deal with citizens who commit crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-or-deportation-what-would-you-do-if-you-were-illegal-immigrant-tsar/407499/12 "2007-06-11T07:56:42Z")
Unless America can physically seal its southern border, it’s not going to happen. Build a wall or a canal or something. The cost of that would be ‘non-trivial’. People are looking for a better life, and are willing to risk everything for it. Everything I’ve read - both here and elsewhere indicates that the main problems with Mexico and Central America are corruption and the lack of rule of law. How about if America were to make an offer to Mexico and all the countries down to Panama: let us govern you for 50 years and in 50 years we’ll grant you statehood? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-or-deportation-what-would-you-do-if-you-were-illegal-immigrant-tsar/407499/13 "2007-06-11T08:03:16Z")
[QUOTE=Quartz] How about if America were to make an offer to Mexico and all the countries down to Panama: let us govern you for 50 years and in 50 years we’ll grant you statehood? [/QUOTE] Why don’t we see how that works in Iraq first? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-or-deportation-what-would-you-do-if-you-were-illegal-immigrant-tsar/407499/14 "2007-06-11T09:02:33Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] Why don’t we see how that works in Iraq first? [/QUOTE] While I don’t think it would work, mainly since they wouldn’t be interested, that’s not a fair comparison. Our endevours in Iraq were crippled from the beginning due to the fact that we are the invaders, that we are blatantly in the wrong, and that we’ve killed a whole lot of them and wrecked the country; not fifty or a hundred years ago, but right now. They justifiably hate our guts, will oppose just about anything we do, good or bad, and are simply not in the mood to cooperate or be persuaded. That’s simply not the same as working with people who’ve invited you in, when a substantial ( possibly even a majority ) portion of the population **wants** us to succeed. While I’m sure that Bush and the neocons would screw it up anyway, a more normal Administration ( or rather a 50 year string of them ) might well pull it off. After all, we **could** do quite a lot of good for them in fifty years, especially with most of the local people trying to help instead of resist and with far fewer people shooting at us and blowing up anything we build for them. Also, given that such an arrangement is far more equitable than our attempt to conquer, loot and puppetize Iraq, whoever plans and implements such a deal is far more likely to mean well, and to be believed to mean well. One lesson of Iraq is that matters. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-or-deportation-what-would-you-do-if-you-were-illegal-immigrant-tsar/407499/15 "2007-06-11T09:30:06Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] That’s simply not the same as working with people who’ve invited you in, when a substantial ( possibly even a majority ) portion of the population **wants** us to succeed. [/QUOTE] I’m not sure why you think this would be the case in Mexico. Even if you got a majority of the government (unlikely), I doubt we would be welcomed by more than a small minority of the population. No matter how well intended, or what the payoff down the road, nationalism will always rebuff rule by outsiders. Mexico has a history of this, and even if you explained how it would be different, I don’t think they would like it any more today than they did [140 years ago](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilian_I_of_Mexico). ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-or-deportation-what-would-you-do-if-you-were-illegal-immigrant-tsar/407499/16 "2007-06-11T10:33:56Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] Why don’t we see how that works in Iraq first? [/QUOTE] I’m going to do you the courtesy of treating that as a serious question. It’s pretty clear that the Iraqis don’t want to be Americans; it’s also pretty clear that a large number of Mexicans do want to be Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-or-deportation-what-would-you-do-if-you-were-illegal-immigrant-tsar/407499/17 "2007-06-11T11:04:57Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] I’m not sure why you think this would be the case in Mexico. Even if you got a majority of the government (unlikely), I doubt we would be welcomed by more than a small minority of the population. No matter how well intended, or what the payoff down the road, nationalism will always rebuff rule by outsiders. Mexico has a history of this, and even if you explained how it would be different, I don’t think they would like it any more today than they did [140 years ago](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilian_I_of_Mexico). [/QUOTE] Which is why I said it probably wouldn’t work, because they aren’t interested. IF they accepted such an offer - not an ultimatum, or terms of surrender, or something just plain imposed by force - then that pretty much implies that they **are** interested. ---
**Author:** ![ASAKMOTSD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@ASAKMOTSD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASAKMOTSD)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-or-deportation-what-would-you-do-if-you-were-illegal-immigrant-tsar/407499/18 "2007-06-11T11:08:57Z")
[QUOTE=Unregistered Bull] It’s important to note that most opposed to amnesty are simply bigots. [/QUOTE] Cite, please? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-or-deportation-what-would-you-do-if-you-were-illegal-immigrant-tsar/407499/19 "2007-06-11T12:13:42Z")
[QUOTE=ASAKMOTSD] Cite, please? :dubious: [/QUOTE] Here’s [an article in VDARE](http://www.vdare.com/sailer/070603_amnesty.htm) giving many of the anti-amnesty points. (Although Bush’s bill doesn’t exactly offer amnesty.) And here’s the [Southern Poverty Law Center’s take](http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=286) on Peter Brimelow, founder of VDARE. > [@](#): > > Brimelow’s site carries archives of columns from men like Sam Francis, who is the editor of the newspaper of the white supremacist Council of Conservative Citizens, a group whose Web page recently described blacks as “a retrograde species of humanity.” > > It has run articles by Jared Taylor, the editor of the white supremacist American Renaissance magazine, which specializes in dubious race and IQ studies and eugenics, the “science” of “race betterment” through selective breeding. > > Recently, VDARE has even begun to publish the writings of Kevin MacDonald, a psychology professor at California State-Long Beach. MacDonald accuses Jews of “dominating” the “movement to change the ethnic balance of the United States by allowing mass, non-traditional [i.e., non-white] immigration.” ---
**Author:** ![ASAKMOTSD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@ASAKMOTSD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASAKMOTSD)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-or-deportation-what-would-you-do-if-you-were-illegal-immigrant-tsar/407499/20 "2007-06-11T12:21:52Z")
[QUOTE=Bridget Burke] Here’s [an article in VDARE](http://www.vdare.com/sailer/070603_amnesty.htm) giving many of the anti-amnesty points. (Although Bush’s bill doesn’t exactly offer amnesty.) And here’s the [Southern Poverty Law Center’s take](http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=286) on Peter Brimelow, founder of VDARE. [/QUOTE] Hmmm :dubious: - In my opinion, citing a white supremacy group ([same group apparently - different names](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VDARE) ) does not qualify as providing adequate backup for what you termed as “most”. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-or-deportation-what-would-you-do-if-you-were-illegal-immigrant-tsar/407499.md?page=2)