# Amsterdam Pro Gay-Idiots **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 22, 2008, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amsterdam-pro-gay-idiots/478336 "2008-12-22T18:10:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Mikkel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikkel/32/13151_2.png) [@Mikkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikkel)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amsterdam-pro-gay-idiots/478336/81 "2008-12-23T13:52:46Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > Yeah you wouldn’t want to do or say anything in public that pisses of or disturbs Christians > [BBC NEWS | Europe | Gay groups angry at Pope remarks](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7797269.stm) > > Respect? Yeah, right. Well, I wouldn’t deliberately piss off anybody because of their sexual orientation or faith. Still, this happened in a place where it probably didn’t piss off anybody, UNLESS they get angry just by the knowledge that it’s happening. Nobody would just pass by and see. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amsterdam-pro-gay-idiots/478336/82 "2008-12-23T14:06:02Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Oh please, get a sense of humor already. Nobody takes the shit we do seriously, especially in a place like Amsterdam, where they’ve seen it all before and laughed along with it. And maybe some straight people need to loosen up a little and have some fun. I don’t understand what my having a sense of humor or not has to do with this. I’m not talking about whether the nativity scene thing is funny or not. I’m talking about your statement that “being rude, crude and frankly offensive is part of who we are.” Are you saying _that_ was just a joke? -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amsterdam-pro-gay-idiots/478336/83 "2008-12-23T14:09:38Z")
Not to speak for **panache** , but when some people think your sexual preference is frankly offensive, it becomes part of who you are whether you like it or not. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amsterdam-pro-gay-idiots/478336/84 "2008-12-23T14:10:25Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > Are you now, or have you ever been, gay? > Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of a gay rights organization? > > If the answer to either the second question, or both questions, is ‘no’ - where do you get the right to criticize what gays and lesbians, or any oppressed group for that matter, do? If you’re not out there alongside them in support of their fight for acceptance, you’re armchair quarterbacking at best. This argument is bollocks. By the same logic, me not being a Neo-Nazi means I have no right to criticize them, which I hope is sufficiently stupid enough to make my point. The only thing that gives the “right” to criticize what other people do is the ability to do so. You aren’t obliged to accept that criticism as accurate, but by no means does not being part of a group mean you have no right to give an opinion on it. Besides, by that logic, if you yourself are gay or part of a gay rights organisation, then you are not part of the group of non-gay or non-gay-rights-organisation-members, and therefore have no right to criticize those people. If you aren’t, then again you have no right to your criticism or otherwise. IOW, your argument means you have no right to voice your argument. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amsterdam-pro-gay-idiots/478336/85 "2008-12-23T21:46:06Z")
It makes total sense to me that Mary and Joseph were gay. Mary was of course the most famous virgin in history. One possible reason… she had no interest in men. One would think Joseph would have some MAJOR issues about Mary’s ongoing virginity. But apparently not. I don’t think I missed a chapter in the bible about the two blue balls of Bethlehem. So maybe Joseph had other rows to hoe, as it were. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amsterdam-pro-gay-idiots/478336/86 "2008-12-23T22:19:31Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > One would think Joseph would have some MAJOR issues about Mary’s ongoing virginity. But apparently not. Joseph: the original “Nice Guy”? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amsterdam-pro-gay-idiots/478336/87 "2008-12-23T22:24:33Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Joseph: the original “Nice Guy”? “Joseph, I’ve been chosen to bear a new incarnation of the Lord!” “But he doesn’t RESPECT you like I do!” ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amsterdam-pro-gay-idiots/478336/88 "2008-12-23T22:50:26Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Yes, those Black Panthers were such nice, friendly, clean cut young men, weren’t they? Not really, but [these folks](http://www.archives.state.al.us/teacher/rights/lesson1/doc7.html) were. And they managed to desegregate the buses just fine. How’s that gay marriage thing working out for y’all so far? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amsterdam-pro-gay-idiots/478336/89 "2008-12-23T22:59:15Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > And they managed to desegregate the buses just fine. How’s that gay marriage thing working out for y’all so far? > > Regards, > Shodan Gosh good golly there Batman, gay marriage in the Netherlands is [doing just fine.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_the_Netherlands) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amsterdam-pro-gay-idiots/478336/90 "2008-12-23T23:06:52Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Gosh good golly there Batman, gay marriage in the Netherlands is [doing just fine.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_the_Netherlands) That’s nice. How is it doing in California? ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amsterdam-pro-gay-idiots/478336/91 "2008-12-23T23:31:15Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > This argument is bollocks. By the same logic, me not being a Neo-Nazi means I have no right to criticize them, which I hope is sufficiently stupid enough to make my point. There’s a world of difference between criticizing something and opposing something. I don’t look at neo-Nazis and think “Y’know, if they weren’t so demonstrative about their anti-Semitism they’d be all right by me”. Same thing applies here - nobody in this thread is opposing gay rights, they’re just criticizing: “They shouldn’t stage drag Nativity scenes if they want other people to think they’re OK”. The problem is that this criticism is being raised from completely outside the gay rights movement by people who, I presume, aren’t even gay. Do you like being told how to do your job by someone who clearly hasn’t the first clue about it? Notice, also, how **Dutchman** conveniently shields himself from getting personally called out by passing the buck. He himself isn’t anti-gay, oh no, he’s just worried about how _other_ people might react to it. Even though it’s pretty clear he doesn’t approve of it himself. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amsterdam-pro-gay-idiots/478336/92 "2008-12-23T23:33:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That’s nice. How is [gay marriage] doing in California? Lousy, but that’s because the leading gay rights organizations did exactly what some have suggested doing in here - sit down, shut up, and don’t make waves. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amsterdam-pro-gay-idiots/478336/93 "2008-12-23T23:38:03Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That’s nice. How is it doing in California? Oh, it kinda sucks. But then again, our governor is an Austrian body-builder who can kick your governor’s ass, so you never know how it’s going to go. You don’t really think gay pride parades led to the passage of prop 8 do you? I could just as easily argue gay pride parades led to its passing by a smaller margin. ---
**Author:** ![alexandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@alexandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alexandra)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amsterdam-pro-gay-idiots/478336/94 "2008-12-24T00:10:06Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That’s nice. How is it doing in California? Not Dutch people’s responsibility or problem, something which no-one in this thread has really addressed. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amsterdam-pro-gay-idiots/478336/95 "2008-12-24T00:10:07Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > Notice, also, how **Dutchman** conveniently shields himself from getting personally called out by passing the buck. He himself isn’t anti-gay, oh no, he’s just worried about how _other_ people might react to it. Even though it’s pretty clear he doesn’t approve of it himself. Sigh. I acceded to your wish to refrain from advocating on this issue. Then you reply with an insincere Christmas greeting, all the more aggregious as a result what was discussed in the Christmas Offended thread that we both participated in. But that’s not enough for you. Now you have to insinuate I’m a homophobe. Why did you feel the need to pick on me after I acceded to you. Its the same question I have to ask Pro Gay in the Netherlands. They have attained every possible right, they’ve won the battle and yet that is not enough. They even secured 15,000 euro from the Amsterdam tax payer to hold this gay event and that is not enough. They just have to insult some of the people who payed for this event. Guys like you don’t want to win. Guys like you relish being victims with an opposition to fight with. You know, there are some people you just can not please. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amsterdam-pro-gay-idiots/478336/96 "2008-12-24T00:25:55Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Not really, but these folks were. > > And they managed to desegregate the buses just fine. And it only took them just under a century to do it, too! > [@](#): > > How’s that gay marriage thing working out for y’all so far? Well, we seem to making progress a lot faster than those nice, clean-cut gentlemen in the black civil rights movement did. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amsterdam-pro-gay-idiots/478336/97 "2008-12-24T00:52:02Z")
Man, those Dutch gays better get their act together and learn how to behave, or they’ll never achieve the same freedom and recognition that California offers. “We are deeply offended at the representation of the Virgin Mary as an adult homosexual man, rather than the beloved image of a prepubescent rape victim as depicted in Christmas pageants everywhere.” Really, when you get right down to it, how is an eight-year-old girl wearing a bathrobe any more intrinsically respectful to Christianity than a gay man in a wig? If someone had tried to put on a traditional Nativity play in 10th century Europe, with little kids representing Joseph and Mary and a toy doll standing in for the Christ Child, they probably would have been burned at the stake so fast that the kindling would have ignited from sheer air friction. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amsterdam-pro-gay-idiots/478336/98 "2008-12-24T01:03:34Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > And it only took them just under a century to do it, too! Try about a year. The campaign was initiated by Rosa Parks refusal to move in Decenber 1955, resulting in a supreme court decision banning segregation on buses one year later. Fast work I’d say. I’d shudder to think what would have happened to the civil rights movement if it was led by Jeremiah Wright. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amsterdam-pro-gay-idiots/478336/99 "2008-12-24T01:34:00Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Try about a year. > > The campaign was initiated by Rosa Parks refusal to move in Decenber 1955, resulting in a supreme court decision banning segregation on buses one year later. Fast work I’d say. > > I’d shudder to think what would have happened to the civil rights movement if it was led by Jeremiah Wright. You are only looking at one aspect of the civil rights movement. The movement actually starts right after the end of the civil war and continues right up to and far past Rosa Parks. The NAACP, for example, was formed in 1909, and it spent the ensuing years engaging in similar types of activities to the SCLC (which I think formed around the bus boycott you are referring to). Civil rights for African Americans was a long, slow, drawn out process. Interestingly, though, that raises the question of why, when people had been fighting for so long, did civil rights start moving astonishingly quickly during the 50s and 60s? One theory I favor is that rapid societal change happens when there is a convergence of societal interests. In the 40s and 50s, you have dramatic shifts in labor requirements, which provided economic incentives to integrate. There’s also the effects of WWII and the horrors of the Holocaust, which created a big push internationally for the protection of human rights generally. I’d also say that the Indian independence movement, which was widely publicized in the West, contributed to changing people’s attitudes towards race relations. And finally, you have the Cold War, which provided a big incentive on the Federal level for integration. The US was trying to gain 3rd-world allies, and it had to deal with both the Soviets and the Non-Aligned movement who were pointing at segregation as a reason to not ally with the US. If you look at the Federal court case briefs submitted by the Federal government during this period, you find a lot of arguments centering around these lines. You should check out the book [Cold War Civil Rights](http://press.princeton.edu/titles/6924.html) for a further discussion of this aspect. Boiling civil rights movements down to simplistic narratives is pretty futile. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amsterdam-pro-gay-idiots/478336/100 "2008-12-24T01:41:00Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > There’s a world of difference between criticizing something and opposing something. I don’t look at neo-Nazis and think “Y’know, if they weren’t so demonstrative about their anti-Semitism they’d be all right by me”. Same thing applies here - nobody in this thread is opposing gay rights, they’re just criticizing: “They shouldn’t stage drag Nativity scenes if they want other people to think they’re OK”. The problem is that this criticism is being raised from completely outside the gay rights movement by people who, I presume, aren’t even gay. Do you like being told how to do your job by someone who clearly hasn’t the first clue about it? But they do have the first clue about it, because any kind of political movement has two interactive parts; the organisation itself, and _everyone else_. The people who are the \*target \*of attempts to convince. And it just makes sense to take the advice of the people who you’re trying to convince if you’re trying to convince them. Saying that they have no right to criticize because they’re not involved is like saying an audience has no right to criticize a play they’re watching. The whole point of the play is to try and get the audience to like it, to sympathise, to evoke some particular reaction. So it’s quite reasonable to see what kind of response people give to a movement or event, because it is precisely that response that is important. Beyond even that, when we’re talking the gay rights movement, “gay” is just one word within the phrase. People may not be gay themselves, may not be experts on that subject, but may very well have experience or advice to offer on the subject of gaining rights, or of organising a successful movement or event. Take **Starving Artist** upthread; his criticism was based around how a movement in general should work if it wants to be effective. **TFD’s** initial OP was likewise based on the effects he thought this particular event we have. > [@](#): > > Notice, also, how **Dutchman** conveniently shields himself from getting personally called out by passing the buck. He himself isn’t anti-gay, oh no, he’s just worried about how _other_ people might react to it. Even though it’s pretty clear he doesn’t approve of it himself. Somewhat veiled suggestions, I would suggest also, are probably not the most effective way of convincing someone towards your viewpoint. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amsterdam-pro-gay-idiots/478336.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amsterdam-pro-gay-idiots/478336.md?page=6)