# Amtrak poised to be sidetracked **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 29, 2017, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amtrak-poised-to-be-sidetracked/790147 "2017-06-29T18:00:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amtrak-poised-to-be-sidetracked/790147/61 "2017-07-03T18:59:00Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > And private train stations. > > Who funded the transcontinental railroad, the government or the two railroads that laid the track? From [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Transcontinental_Railroad#Federal_financing): > [@](#): > > To finance the project, the [Pacific Railroad Act of 1862] authorized the federal government to issue 30-year U.S. government bonds (at 6% interest). The railroad companies were paid $16,000/mile (approximately $426,000 today) for track laid on a level grade, $32,000/mile (about $853,000 today) for track laid in foothills, and $48,000/mile (or about $1,279,000 today) for track laid in mountains. The two railroad companies sold similar amounts of company-backed bonds and stock. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amtrak-poised-to-be-sidetracked/790147/62 "2017-07-03T21:07:57Z")
I wonder how much it costs to lay a mile of track today. [$1 mil to $2 mil.](http://www.acwr.com/economic-development/railroads-101/rail-siding-costs) Yeah, Wikipedia is our friend. ---
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amtrak-poised-to-be-sidetracked/790147/63 "2017-07-03T21:26:01Z")
I agree that high-speed track needs to be built outside of small- and medium-sized towns - for freight. Right now they travel through the center of cities, most of which have no railhead, often carrying hazardous materials. Amtrak would be much faster if they owned and upgraded the old track, which would suffer much less wear and tear. I’m even in favor of keeping the small-town stops. Those folks like to travel, too. If you want to go from Austin to Marfa by commercial airline, you’ll still have a three-hour drive from El Paso or Midland. The train station in Alpine is a half-hour drive. The biggest obstacle at that point would be slowing down for cities and crossings. It would take a lot of infrastructure to solve that, especially in large cities. As Groucho said, I’m a dreamer, Montreal. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amtrak-poised-to-be-sidetracked/790147/64 "2017-07-03T23:33:06Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Surely there are places in England that are as viable or moreso than the Boswash corridor. My limited experience of rail in the south of England was that it is as fast as driving and cheaper than flying, in addition to being pretty darn full, a sure sign that a route is viable if there ever was one. (As a comparison, the few times I’ve taken regional rail in the NYC area, the trains were more than half-empty and it was on a holiday weekend, but I admit that that may be an anomaly and they might usually be more packed.) My only complaints: the intercity routes only ran around every 2 hours, and considering the packedness of the trains you’d think they could fit some more trains in the schedule; and the fare from Gatwick to Victoria indeed did seem extortionate since they have a captive audience, granted not as high as it _could_ be considering the captive audience, but I felt mildly robbed having to pony up nearly $30 without having very many other options. Southern England is more densely populated that the USA, but the fare structure is a nightmare. It’s not like the US where you show up and say “Hi, I’d like a ticket on the 8.42am to Boston, please” and it will cost the same price. The last time I tried getting an intercity train in the UK (London to Bath) the price fluctuated wildly depending on which particular departure I wanted, whether I wanted First Class, Second Class or Stand At The Back Looking Silly Class, and it still took quite a while to get there. It was the complete opposite of my rail experiences in Australia, the USA and even Malaysia, in other words. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amtrak-poised-to-be-sidetracked/790147/65 "2017-07-04T02:28:55Z")
We watched _Stranger on a Train_ last night. Apparently in 1952 you could sit in the observation car with only one other guy and watch the world go by while you read a newspaper. ---
**Author:** ![Civil\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d78d45/32.png) [@Civil\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Civil_Guy)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amtrak-poised-to-be-sidetracked/790147/66 "2017-07-04T03:31:38Z")
For the record, California currently has a high-speed rail line under construction, mainly using state funds. It’s a big project, expensive, and pretty controversial – as you might well expect. The part to be completed first will run from San Jose to Bakersfield, starting in 2025. The part that’s started construction runs through the state’s Central Valley and doesn’t yet connect any major destinations. My take on it is that they want to complete as many miles as possible as soon as possible. Governor Brown has been the project’s biggest supporter: it is kind of a race to see how much can be completed before he leaves office in 2018. It’s not clear that his successor, likely a Democrat notwithstanding, will support the project so much. It’s anybody’s guess as to when the route will meaningfully connect Los Angeles to San Francisco, but it’s advertised that it will be a less than 3 hour trip when it happens. …Me, I’m a rail fan. Sure, trains are slower than flying, but there are mitigations. While not gourmet, the food served in the diner is good. There’s time to enjoy it. The seats have legroom and width. There are generous limits for allowed luggage, not extra to the basic fare. And I think it’s been documented that trains are a lot more energy efficient than planes. Our descendants may someday wish we’d considered that more. And I think it will be cool to be able to run from LA to the Bay Area, or vice versa, as a day trip. ---
**Author:** ![Civil\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d78d45/32.png) [@Civil\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Civil_Guy)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amtrak-poised-to-be-sidetracked/790147/67 "2017-07-04T04:00:05Z")
Apropos to the Wikipedia info posted by **scr4** : I’ve also taken the train between the Bay Area and Reno, Nevada, several times. There’s been a volunteer train hobbyist most times giving a tour guide-type talk. Leaving Sacramento, the land is pretty flat until the train starts climbing into the Sierra Nevada mountains. The tour guide speakers always point out the location where the railroad company started getting the extra pay for mountain work. Um, at that point, the mountains are not much apparent. Curious, that. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amtrak-poised-to-be-sidetracked/790147/68 "2017-07-04T04:15:10Z")
> [@Civil\_Guy](#): > > …Me, I’m a rail fan. Sure, trains are slower than flying, but there are mitigations. While not gourmet, the food served in the diner is good. There’s time to enjoy it. The seats have legroom and width. There are generous limits for allowed luggage, not extra to the basic fare. > > And I think it’s been documented that trains are a lot more energy efficient than planes. Our descendants may someday wish we’d considered that more. > > And I think it will be cool to be able to run from LA to the Bay Area, or vice versa, as a day trip. I’ve traveled to Europe a couple times, and took intercity trains quite often. I always found them to be a really nice way to get around; more comfortable and relaxing than flying, a better view of the scenery, and a much friendlier environment among the passengers. I’ve seen it work. So the U.S. doesn’t haven’t to invent all this technology from scratch. That means we also don’t have manufacturers here lobbying for contracts, or politicians trading favors to bring jobs to their districts.[sup]\*[/sup] That’s no guarantee it would attract riders in the U.S., though. Europe has a higher population density, and when you arrive in a city there’s good local transit to get you around. I’d just like us to learn what we can from the places where it does work, and lay the groundwork now for when conditions are right to build it. I’m not completely sure about that. Maybe the California project does include trains built in America. But if it does, that means we also get to go through all the teething problems of getting them to work right. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amtrak-poised-to-be-sidetracked/790147/69 "2017-07-04T04:37:53Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I’m not completely sure about that. Maybe the California project does include trains built in America. Even if they’re not built in America, trains that are available off-the-rack overseas are often illegal in the USA due to our different (but not necessarily better) approach to crash safety. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amtrak-poised-to-be-sidetracked/790147/70 "2017-07-04T04:50:19Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > Even if they’re not built in America, trains that are available off-the-rack overseas are often illegal in the USA due to our different (but not necessarily better) approach to crash safety. Yeah, I’ve read that, just forgot it while writing that post. Thanks. Still, seems like it would be less risky to adapt a working design to American regulations than to start from a clean sheet of paper. ---
**Author:** ![Civil\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d78d45/32.png) [@Civil\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Civil_Guy)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amtrak-poised-to-be-sidetracked/790147/71 "2017-07-04T16:23:40Z")
The official web page: [California High Speed Rail Authority](http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/) They probably mean well, but the website is pretty, well, governmental. I haven’t paid so much attention to the myriad issues in the train set manufacture. It looks like the CAHSR Authority is now preparing to take proposals from candidates for “Early Train Operator” (not sure what that means, even after trying to read some of the stuff they post). Yes, “Buy America” requirements are sure to be involved, but most all of the manufacturers with direct experience are necessarily foreign. I have to believe that there will be some kind of partnership or such that provide the proper amount of legal cover, er, meet the selection requirements. Me, I hardly know what “Buy America” would really mean any more, what with all the different materials and possibilities for assembly plant location. Doubtless the station design and trains will need to comply with US and California handicapped accessibility standards. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amtrak-poised-to-be-sidetracked/790147/72 "2017-07-04T17:03:20Z")
> [@Civil\_Guy](#): > > For the record, California currently has a high-speed rail line under construction, mainly using state funds. It’s a big project, expensive, and pretty controversial – as you might well expect. > > The part to be completed first will run from San Jose to Bakersfield, starting in 2025. The part that’s started construction runs through the state’s Central Valley and doesn’t yet connect any major destinations. My take on it is that they want to complete as many miles as possible as soon as possible. > > Governor Brown has been the project’s biggest supporter: it is kind of a race to see how much can be completed before he leaves office in 2018. It’s not clear that his successor, likely a Democrat notwithstanding, will support the project so much. It’s anybody’s guess as to when the route will meaningfully connect Los Angeles to San Francisco, but it’s advertised that it will be a less than 3 hour trip when it happens. > …Me, I’m a rail fan. Sure, trains are slower than flying, but there are mitigations. While not gourmet, the food served in the diner is good. There’s time to enjoy it. The seats have legroom and width. There are generous limits for allowed luggage, not extra to the basic fare. > > And I think it’s been documented that trains are a lot more energy efficient than planes. Our descendants may someday wish we’d considered that more. > > And I think it will be cool to be able to run from LA to the Bay Area, or vice versa, as a day trip. I don’t see how it financially makes sense. According to the latest numbers on wikipedia it is expected to cost 68.4 billion. Its annual revenues when completely finished will be 1.559 billion dollars. If you took 100% of the revenue it would take 39.5 years to repay the money it took to build it. If you assume that 50% of the revenue will repay the money, then it will almost be paid for 100 years from now. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amtrak-poised-to-be-sidetracked/790147/73 "2017-07-04T18:10:00Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > I don’t see how it financially makes sense. According to the latest numbers on wikipedia it is expected to cost 68.4 billion. Its annual revenues when completely finished will be 1.559 billion dollars. If you took 100% of the revenue it would take 39.5 years to repay the money it took to build it. If you assume that 50% of the revenue will repay the money, then it will almost be paid for 100 years from now. You forget the saved air quality, global warming and freeway wear and tear. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amtrak-poised-to-be-sidetracked/790147/74 "2017-07-04T18:15:00Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > I don’t see how it financially makes sense. According to the latest numbers on wikipedia it is expected to cost 68.4 billion. Its annual revenues when completely finished will be 1.559 billion dollars. If you took 100% of the revenue it would take 39.5 years to repay the money it took to build it. If you assume that 50% of the revenue will repay the money, then it will almost be paid for 100 years from now. That’s not really a fair standard, unless you apply it to other forms of infrastructure, too. In most of the country, interstate highways are free to use, so they produce no direct annual revenue. It’s still considered worthwhile to build, maintain, and upgrade them; as a public good, and in terms of economic growth, time savings, and productivity. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amtrak-poised-to-be-sidetracked/790147/75 "2017-07-05T13:47:43Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > That’s not really a fair standard, unless you apply it to other forms of infrastructure, too. In most of the country, interstate highways are free to use, so they produce no direct annual revenue. It’s still considered worthwhile to build, maintain, and upgrade them; as a public good, and in terms of economic growth, time savings, and productivity. But interstate highways are cheaper to build. For instance you could triple the existing amount of interstate highways in California for the same amount of money being spent on High Speed rail. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amtrak-poised-to-be-sidetracked/790147/76 "2017-07-05T15:11:02Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > We watched _Stranger on a Train_ last night. > Apparently in 1952 you could sit in the observation car with only one other guy and watch the world go by while you read a newspaper. In '93, I took the Capitol Limited to Chicago and back. Spent the night alone in the observation car, watching the world go by. A boy of about 10 joined me some time after sunrise and we had a nice chat. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amtrak-poised-to-be-sidetracked/790147/77 "2017-07-05T15:25:22Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > But interstate highways are cheaper to build. For instance you could triple the existing amount of interstate highways in California for the same amount of money being spent on High Speed rail. How much does a completely new freeway cost to build, per mile? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amtrak-poised-to-be-sidetracked/790147/78 "2017-07-05T17:29:36Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > How much does a completely new freeway cost to build, per mile? About $4 million per mile. ymmv ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amtrak-poised-to-be-sidetracked/790147/79 "2017-07-05T17:46:48Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > About $4 million per mile. ymmv How is it different from pouring a multi lane driveway? ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amtrak-poised-to-be-sidetracked/790147/80 "2017-07-05T17:49:35Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > How much does a completely new freeway cost to build, per mile? I saw online a figure of 11 million for a new mile of interstate in a urban area, so that is what I used for calculation. The High Speed rail is expected to cost 85 million dollars a mile. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amtrak-poised-to-be-sidetracked/790147.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amtrak-poised-to-be-sidetracked/790147.md?page=5)