# An AC-130 in World War 2 **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 28, 2012, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-ac-130-in-world-war-2/626582 "2012-06-28T14:54:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![kombatminipig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5ac83/32.png) [@kombatminipig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kombatminipig)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-ac-130-in-world-war-2/626582/41 "2012-06-28T19:08:07Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > An AH-130 isn’t a bomber. It’s a gunship. You’d be pecking at the surface of a bunker, if you were going for an assassination run. Indeed, I even stated the fact myself in an above post. It is on the other hand a gunship with a big honking 105mm Howitzer. I’m not sure about the penetration of 105mm AP shells though. > [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > There’s enough AA defense, they wouldn’t have to see you very well to knock you out of the sky through sheer volume of fire. No radar, but they didn’t really have radar to jam anyway. Eyeballs would be quite sufficient once you started firing and gave them a target. There was radar, but not in the area. The ECM would be useful getting past the Kammhuber Line. I wouldn’t be so sure about the AA fire. Hitting a weaving target in the dead of night with slow traversing guns and without proximity shells is not likely an easy job using only manual sighting and muzzle flashes from the 105mm. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-ac-130-in-world-war-2/626582/42 "2012-06-28T19:25:38Z")
> [@Shosy](#): > > One thing the nature of war has changed from bulk destruction to a more surgical strike type mission. The AC-130, nuclear weapons, etc are hold overs from that time. > > My point is, lets say the Nimitz suddenly shows up and Donitz sends 50% of the U-boat fleet to go sink it. Is the anti-sub warfare systems carried by the Nimitz capable of destroying so many targets, especially without supply replenishment? Probably not because it’s setup to destroy fewer larger, more sophisticated submarines. > > It’s a similar issue with trying to sink an Iowa class battleship with a current anti-ship weapon, they just aren’t designed to sink such a ship. > > A flip side has always been, say Germany had a squadron of fully loaded Eurofighters. What could that squadron do against a 1000 plane B-17 raid? (although a cold war era nuclear tipped nike missle would probably have caused a pause in the bombing). > > Anyway if you were going to try and stop Hitler, the easiest way with probably to go back when he’s an art student, tell him you want to buy some of his work, get him alone, blow his brains out. Some things are off base. The AC-130 is a surgical strike weapon. It doesn’t carry any real large area weapons. Even the 105mm is very accurate. I’ve talked to crews and seen the camera footage. Small concentrations of men (even individuals), sheds, vehicles, small buildings are typical targets. It’s a very in-demand item, hardly a hold over. Nimitz and protecting force against WWII U-boats. Not a challenge. The anti-sub forces will pick up the subs long before they could sight the Nimitz and destroy or avoid the subs. The Nimitz and force has a 3 to 1 speed advantage (more if the old subs are underwater on batteries). Current anti-ship weapons useless against a battleship. Current torpedos are designed to detonate beneath ships and break their backs. Modern anti-ship mines attack in the same way. Many anti-ship missiles including the latest Chinese missile DF-21 are downward diving missiles. All the above weapons take advantage of the battleships weakest points; deck armor and bottom of the hull. The torpedo belt armor and spaced compartments behind won’t help against the mines and torpedos used today. You could also praise the art student, encourage him, back him financially, thereby only inflicting bad art on the world. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-ac-130-in-world-war-2/626582/43 "2012-06-29T01:17:30Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I think killing Hitler would be a bad idea unless you got him well before he managed to take control of Germany. > > IIRC the allies even decided against going after Hitler because they figured he was more hindrance than help to their war effort. If you knocked him off and Germany’s very competent generals started running the war it would be a bad thing for the allies. Precisely which generals, at what points in time, would have been in a position to take over the reins of power to Germany’s benefit? ---
**Author:** ![SanDiegoTim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/85e7bf/32.png) [@SanDiegoTim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanDiegoTim)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-ac-130-in-world-war-2/626582/44 "2012-06-29T03:46:30Z")
You didn’t ask, but in the Pacific theater…The AC-130 could have made a difference and saved thousands of American lives in the latter stages of the war in the Pacific when Japanese air power was depleted. Assuming ground troops could have communicated effectively the gunship, they would have wreaked havoc on Iwo Jima and probably Okinawa as well. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-ac-130-in-world-war-2/626582/45 "2012-06-29T03:46:57Z")
So, is it the case that they wouldn’t know how to make the fuel needed for an AC-130 back in the early-mid 1940s? What’s changed about aircraft fuel since then? (I imagine the _lead_ content certainly has, but let’s focus more on alterations _deliberate_ on the part of the people supplying the craft.) Would any power in WWII have had ready-made runways sufficient to the task of hosting a B-52? Finally, would WWII-era pilots (say late WWII, 1944 or so) have been able to fly any military aircraft designed after the Vietnam War without further training? ---
**Author:** ![phxjcc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8491ac/32.png) [@phxjcc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phxjcc)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-ac-130-in-world-war-2/626582/46 "2012-06-29T06:12:54Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > After my [previous attempt](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=655836) at interfering with history with an M1A2 modern main battle tank failed - consensus was that it would fail mechanically or get its treads taken out - I’ve decided to use my timey-wimey ball to send back a different piece of hardware. > > It’s the evening of June 21st, 1941. Hitler is in the Wolf’s Lair. Operation Barbarossa is about to be launched. I send back a fully-loaded, fully-crewed and fully fuelled Lockheed AC-130H Spectre to England, RAF Thurleigh in Bedfordshire which has been flying B-24 Liberator missions. > > I want my AC-130H to fly to the Wolf’s Lair, finish the Fuhrer and then cause as much damage to the invasion force as possible. Unfortunately loose lips sink ships, and the Germans have placed the entire Luftwaffe and ground air defences on full alert, with orders to take me down. The range of an AC-130 is 2,530 miles, so hopefully fuel won’t be an issue this time. > > Will I do better in the air than I did on the ground? Will I even be able to take off (or land) on a 1940s runway? Why don’t you just use your timey-wimey ball to just nuke the bastard? Say on Sept. 3, 1939. Just your standard ICBM would get through. Sept 1: Poland invaded. Sept 3: War declared. Sept 3: Nuke him–and all his creeps in Berlin. 400,000 dead and Berlin leveled. Japan says: “Holy $hit, we didn’t know that they had _that_!” 20 million lives saved. Game over. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-ac-130-in-world-war-2/626582/47 "2012-06-29T06:39:05Z")
I am going to go with an Antonov An-225 loaded with approximately 110 GBU-28 laser guided bunker busters. It has the range, speed, and ceiling to stay out of danger. You can just push the bombs out of the rear cargo door (cue nitpicking that only the second, incomplete An-225 had a rear door). ---
**Author:** ![kombatminipig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5ac83/32.png) [@kombatminipig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kombatminipig)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-ac-130-in-world-war-2/626582/48 "2012-06-29T08:14:18Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > I am going to go with an Antonov An-225 loaded with approximately 110 GBU-28 laser guided bunker busters. It has the range, speed, and ceiling to stay out of danger. You can just push the bombs out of the rear cargo door (cue nitpicking that only the second, incomplete An-225 had a rear door). But no way of aiming. Still, a B-29 zapped forward in time a few years would be untouchable due to the service ceiling…the problem would be hitting the bunker. Instead of going for hyperbole, why don’t we try to find the minimal technical solution required to blow up Hitler instead? =) ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-ac-130-in-world-war-2/626582/49 "2012-06-29T08:40:18Z")
> [@kombatminipig](#): > > Instead of going for hyperbole, why don’t we try to find the minimal technical solution required to blow up Hitler instead? =) **coremelt** ’s January 27, 1923 (date of the first NSDAP rally) solution would seem to be a good candidate (with the slight modification of the 28th being a better day… Hitler spent the 27th giving speeches in beer halls; the 28th is when he gave a speech to supporters in a big field.) ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-ac-130-in-world-war-2/626582/50 "2012-06-29T09:17:45Z")
> [@kombatminipig](#): > > But no way of aiming. Still, a B-29 zapped forward in time a few years would be untouchable due to the service ceiling…the problem would be hitting the bunker. > > Instead of going for hyperbole, why don’t we try to find the minimal technical solution required to blow up Hitler instead? =) Well, those guys are laser guided, not GPS guided, so that helps. To be honest I don’t know what kind of laser is required, but I suspect it could be handheld or nearly so. Minimal technical solution? Tell Stauffenberg to use just a bit more explosive… ---
**Author:** ![kombatminipig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5ac83/32.png) [@kombatminipig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kombatminipig)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-ac-130-in-world-war-2/626582/51 "2012-06-29T10:52:41Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > **coremelt** ’s January 27, 1923 (date of the first NSDAP rally) solution would seem to be a good candidate (with the slight modification of the 28th being a better day… Hitler spent the 27th giving speeches in beer halls; the 28th is when he gave a speech to supporters in a big field.) Well, true…but the OPs specific question was bombing the Wolf’s Lair in 1941. Our Timey-Wimey device is stuck to sending us there. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-ac-130-in-world-war-2/626582/52 "2012-06-29T23:05:53Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Precisely which generals, at what points in time, would have been in a position to take over the reins of power to Germany’s benefit? German Army CIC Von Brauschich(sp?) would likely have been titular leader, with General Staff Chief Halder as details man. Halder at least plotted on and off throughout his tenure as GS Chief (ca. 1937-43). There was no shortage of candidates for any job needing to be filled. The problem was that all candidates displayed a thoroughgoing muddled vacillation whenever it came time to do anything, combined with an opportunism which they never admitted to: they would plot, and then Hitler would pull off some feat such as all the bloodless pre-war triumphs followed by the unbroken string of military triumphs 9/1/39 through ~5/31/40 during which he actually backed the right men and the best strategies. (Google “Manstein Plan” on that note) The sainted Stauffenberg was no exception as an opportunist, doing nothing except whine in private until the war started going sour. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2012, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-ac-130-in-world-war-2/626582/53 "2012-06-30T01:28:59Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Minimal technical solution? Tell Stauffenberg to use just a bit more explosive… And stay until the job is done! He was out to kill the greatest monster Austria created and he was not willing to die to see it through? Coward. A firing squad was too good for him. ---
**Author:** ![andybill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/49beb7/32.png) [@andybill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andybill)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-ac-130-in-world-war-2/626582/54 "2012-10-11T19:40:39Z")
> [@Shosy](#): > > One thing the nature of war has changed from bulk destruction to a more surgical strike type mission. The AC-130, nuclear weapons, etc are hold overs from that time. > > My point is, lets say the Nimitz suddenly shows up and Donitz sends 50% of the U-boat fleet to go sink it. Is the anti-sub warfare systems carried by the Nimitz capable of destroying so many targets, especially without supply replenishment? Probably not because it’s setup to destroy fewer larger, more sophisticated submarines. > > It’s a similar issue with trying to sink an Iowa class battleship with a current anti-ship weapon, they just aren’t designed to sink such a ship. > > A flip side has always been, say Germany had a squadron of fully loaded Eurofighters. What could that squadron do against a 1000 plane B-17 raid? (although a cold war era nuclear tipped nike missle would probably have caused a pause in the bombing). > > Anyway if you were going to try and stop Hitler, the easiest way with probably to go back when he’s an art student, tell him you want to buy some of his work, get him alone, blow his brains out. replying to an old message but did you see any of his art? Saying you want to buy it should have caused a fatal heart attack. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-ac-130-in-world-war-2/626582/55 "2012-10-11T21:54:18Z")
This isn’t what the OP had in mind, but there is a way to succeed here, depending on what the AC-130 is allowed to know. Hitler traveled by train to the Wolf’s Lair, arriving late at night on June 23 or early the 24th. Attack the train. The Spectre will be safe night flying at high altitude so it should be able to get wherever it needs to be. If they are allowed to know the train’s route, it would be best to pick a good spot to attack away from the WL. If not, they can orbit high above the WL, wait for a train, come down to low altitude and fire it up when it gets there. Hitler’s train had a couple 20mm Flakvierling 38s with a range of 7,000 feet, but the AC-130 attacks from 5-10,000 so if they could catch it out in the middle of nowhere, they would have a good chance of success. If they have to attack near the Wolf’s Lair or near any heavy AAA, the Germans would saturate the air and their chance of success would go down a lot. ETA: Didn’t realize this was an old thread and didn’t see that I was ninja’d by 4 months. > [@silenus](#): > > 06-28-2012 > If Hitler is in the Lair, it really doesn’t matter what you send back without nukes. It won’t work. So change the date and time to some selected time when you know he is en-route on the train. _Then_ take it out with whatever overkill you want. ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-ac-130-in-world-war-2/626582/56 "2012-10-11T22:59:16Z")
What if you loaded the AC-130 with chemical/biological munitions and saturated the entire bunker area with them? They weren’t banned back then, right, and would the bunker have had proper air filtration? ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-ac-130-in-world-war-2/626582/57 "2012-10-11T23:11:38Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > What if you loaded the AC-130 with chemical/biological munitions and saturated the entire bunker area with them? > > They weren’t banned back then, right, and would the bunker have had proper air filtration? And then London and many other British cities get a healthy dose of gas. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-ac-130-in-world-war-2/626582/58 "2012-10-12T00:35:42Z")
How about saving the AC-130 for Omaha beach? ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-ac-130-in-world-war-2/626582/59 "2012-10-12T04:28:08Z")
> [@Szlater](#): > > And then London and many other British cities get a healthy dose of gas. The Wolf’s Lair was in Poland, about 1100 miles east of London. ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-ac-130-in-world-war-2/626582/60 "2012-10-12T04:32:57Z")
> [@Szlater](#): > > And then London and many other British cities get a healthy dose of gas. Are you saying the Nazis had chemical weapons they chose not to use out of… mercy for the British? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-ac-130-in-world-war-2/626582.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-ac-130-in-world-war-2/626582.md?page=4)