# An Alcoholic Quandry **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 24, 2006, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alcoholic-quandry/345866 "2006-02-24T00:33:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2006, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alcoholic-quandry/345866/21 "2006-02-24T14:13:45Z")
> [@davenportavenger](#): > > Which is exactly why abstinence programs don’t work for a lot of people. By making people believe that even one sniff of wine will push them right off the wagon, we create a self-fulfilling prophecy wherein if the former alcoholic slips up and takes a drink he might as well cash in his chips (literally) and go full-on alky again, because he’s a total failure. Abstinence may work for some people, especially those people who do have a physical lack of tolerance for alcohol, but it is not for everyone. Nice speculation, but hazardous to people who have had problems with alcohol. Yes, it is entirely possible that some people who have had such problems could take a sip now and then and its also possible that there are also some cannot do that. At this time we have no known way of identifying which is which. Therefore, if you have had problems it is much safer to just not drink. Despite rumors to the contrary, it is entirely possible to have a lot of fun and a good life without alcohol. And I really don’t understand why those who can and do drink without problems are so goddamned worried that someone, somewhere doesn’t drink who possibly could. As to the OP. I seriously doubt that anyone who meets the Queen, the President or anyone along those lines does so cold and without getting a briefing as to what is going to happen. At that briefing is the time to speak up and say, “I don’t drink.” or even “I don’t drink because I’m an alcoholic.” ---
**Author:** ![Bertie\_Wooster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58f4c7/32.png) [@Bertie\_Wooster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bertie_Wooster)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2006, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alcoholic-quandry/345866/22 "2006-02-24T14:23:57Z")
> [@SaintCad](#): > > Through AA? 14% If it’s anonymous, how do they know how many? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2006, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alcoholic-quandry/345866/23 "2006-02-24T14:26:20Z")
> [@davenportavenger](#): > > Which is exactly why abstinence programs don’t work for a lot of people. Is there a better way. Are there programs for alcoholics that strive for moderate use? Us alcoholics would like to know. > [@](#): > > By making people believe that even one sniff of wine will push them right off the wagon, we create a self-fulfilling prophecy wherein if the former alcoholic slips up and takes a drink he might as well cash in his chips (literally) and go full-on alky again, because he’s a total failure. No such thing as a former alcoholic. The alcoholic strives to control his drinking and constantly fails. If he can control it like the rest of humanity, then he wouldn’t be an alcoholic. > [@](#): > > Abstinence may work for some people, especially those people who do have a physical lack of tolerance for alcohol, but it is not for everyone. Everyone is not an alcoholic. Picturing the appropriate prophylactic. > [@](#): > > As for the OP, I would take the drink. Are you an alcoholic ? My answer to the queen? “No thank you Your Majesty, I’m allergic to wine.” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2006, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alcoholic-quandry/345866/24 "2006-02-24T15:26:55Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > I won’t deny it, but I’ll ask for a cite before I believe it. I’ll see if I can dig up a cite, but my claim was based on anecdotal evidence from alcoholics I’ve talked to. Most recently, I heard a talk on Monday from an alcoholic who described his struggles. After having not touched alcohol for several months, he went out for a Mother’s Day brunch with his mother and, figuring he’d finally got his drinking under control, ordered a glass of wine to have with the brunch. He woke up from his coma ten days later, as they were trying to decide whether to remove life support. He suffered irreparable brain damage from the incident. Again, I’m not saying it’d happen to everyone. But if I’m weighing the possibility on one hand of offending an extremely thoughtless queen, and the possibility on the other hand of falling into a coma that could kill me or could just leave me seriously brain-damaged, I’m gonna go for insulting the queen. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![davenportavenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f8ce5/32.png) [@davenportavenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davenportavenger)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2006, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alcoholic-quandry/345866/25 "2006-02-24T16:52:42Z")
> [@The Flying Dutchman](#): > > Is there a better way. Are there programs for alcoholics that strive for moderate use? Us alcoholics would like to know. A Google search uncovered this: [Moderation Management](http://www.moderation.org/). I’m sure there are others, I read a US and World Report article a few years ago (sorry, forget the year/month) that listed a bunch of them as part of an article that said these programs have a higher success rate for certain types of alcohol abusers. And I know that abstinence is not for everyone. There are people whose systems are so compromised from alcohol abuse that one drink will make them ill, like the man in LHoD’s example. However, there are also people who have had problems with alcohol in the past, but did not develop physical tolerance and can learn to deal with alcohol again in healthy ways. I think it’s incorrect to refer to the latter group as “alcoholics” and say they can never be cured. Every person is an individual, and abstinence therapy doesn’t work for every alcohol abuser any more than talk therapy works for everyone with depression, or chemotherapy works for cancer patients. ---
**Author:** ![davenportavenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f8ce5/32.png) [@davenportavenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davenportavenger)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2006, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alcoholic-quandry/345866/26 "2006-02-24T16:53:55Z")
> [@davenportavenger](#): > > And I know that abstinence is not for everyone. Sorry, this should say “moderation is not for everyone.” Although, IMO, both are true. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2006, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alcoholic-quandry/345866/27 "2006-02-24T17:00:21Z")
> [@davenportavenger](#): > > And I know that abstinence is not for everyone. There are people whose systems are so compromised from alcohol abuse that one drink will make them ill, like the man in LHoD’s example. However, there are also people who have had problems with alcohol in the past, but did not develop physical tolerance and can learn to deal with alcohol again in healthy ways. I think it’s incorrect to refer to the latter group as “alcoholics” and say they can never be cured. Every person is an individual, and abstinence therapy doesn’t work for every alcohol abuser any more than talk therapy works for everyone with depression, or chemotherapy works for cancer patients. Again, I agree. The problem is that it’s very difficult to know which group you belong in ahead of time. For example, the founder of Moderation Management [went to prison for killing two people in a DUI](http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/mod11.shtml). She had, two months earlier, admitted that moderate drinking was not working for her. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t work for everyone, again; it just means that, if you think it does and you’re wrong, there can be consequences. Finally, note that the OP says that you’re a “recovering alcoholic.” That’s not language used by the MM folks: that’s language used by the AA folks. If you consider yourself to be a recovering alcoholic, the only reason to take that drink is because you want to get in a crazy fight with the beaver-hats. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2006, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alcoholic-quandry/345866/28 "2006-02-24T17:36:47Z")
> [@davenportavenger](#): > > And I know that abstinence is not for everyone. There are people whose systems are so compromised from alcohol abuse that one drink will make them ill, like the man in LHoD’s example. However, there are also people who have had problems with alcohol in the past, but did not develop physical tolerance and can learn to deal with alcohol again in healthy ways. Even if they don’t have a physical tolerance, if you’re a recovering alcoholic, you most likely have a remaining psychological dependency that you can’t control. If you don’t, well, you’re not an addict, really. People usually become psychologically addicted to alcohol long before the physical tolerance level sets in. ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2006, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alcoholic-quandry/345866/29 "2006-02-24T18:48:05Z")
I like **silenus** ’s solution the best, with this caveat: puke on the Queen before you hack away at the camera. Makes for better TV. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2006, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alcoholic-quandry/345866/30 "2006-02-24T18:54:06Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > You forgot vomiting on the Queen’s shoes. I find that to be a dynamite finish. …after making out with her and never calling her again ---
**Author:** ![furnishesq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/977dab/32.png) [@furnishesq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furnishesq)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2006, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alcoholic-quandry/345866/31 "2006-02-24T20:15:28Z")
“Moderation Management” – I don’t know many alcohol/drug counsellors and programs which put much stock in MM. AA model of abstience seems the theory of choice. I am aware that the success rate for AA is not the greatest (but neither is any other program) Drinking the goblet of wine seems a bad choice for our friend over in England, but the peer and social pressure of the moment might compel him or her to take that drink. . . ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2006, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alcoholic-quandry/345866/32 "2006-02-24T22:17:47Z")
I wanna tell her that I love her a lot, But I gotta get a belly full of wine. Her Majesty’s a pretty nice gal, Some day I’m gonna make her mine. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2006, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alcoholic-quandry/345866/33 "2006-02-24T22:26:28Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Guzzle the wine, grab a yeoman’s halberd, scream “No taxation without domestication!” at the top of your lungs and hack away at the TV camera before ralphing all over the Queen. Blame the whole thing on the Tories. Sell your story to the tabloids. Are you stalking me? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2006, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alcoholic-quandry/345866/34 "2006-02-24T23:08:36Z")
> [@Bertie Wooster](#): > > If it’s anonymous, how do they know how many? There have been research studies comparing AA based (12 step) programs versus other methodologies in resolving addictions. ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2006, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alcoholic-quandry/345866/35 "2006-02-25T00:56:21Z")
> [@furnishesq](#): > > Say you are a recovering alcoholic. > > Your drinkings days saw you in legal, financial, medial and marital trouble > > Spent years fighting the terrible addiction and got your act together and pieced together many happy sober years. > > You go on Vacation to England and visit Windsor Castle. > > For some reason you are asked by a guard to enter St. George’s Chapel. > > You enter and are escorted up to the Royal Family. > > The Queen of England makes a very offical sounding announcment and hands you a goblet of wine to drink. > > All eyes are on you. (DId I mention the BBC is televising the ceremony?) > > You spouse looks at you wearily. . . > > Do you drink it? Or do you say you can’t because you are an alcoholic? > > What would you do? :dubious: :dubious: :dubious: You tell her that you have a very busy schedule and are not prepared to interrupt it to stop and have drinks with strange old women. And perhaps kick a corgi on your way out. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2006, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alcoholic-quandry/345866/36 "2006-02-25T01:50:14Z")
> [@furnishesq](#): > > “Moderation Management” – I don’t know many alcohol/drug counsellors and programs which put much stock in MM. > > AA model of abstience seems the theory of choice. I am aware that the success rate for AA is not the greatest (but neither is any other program). Of course, one reason for _that_ is that AA got out in front of the publicity curve in the U.S. years ago and many of their positions are now considered “true” despite a lack of conclusive evidence one way or another. AA influenced opinions tend to suppress funds for research into alcohol management in the U.S. There have been such studies in Europe, although I do not know what results they have produced. I am not about to tell anyone how they should handle their drinking, but I will note that I do know people who were “problem drinkers” who went to AA long enough to dry out, couldn’t stand that particular culture, dropped out, and later resumed moderate drinking with no episodes similar to that mentioned by **LHoD**. I know a guy who spent several years without ever being sober who woke up one day and said “This is stupid” and who just quit cold. He had been alcohol free for five or six years when I knew him and claimed that he never missed it and had no temptation to try it again. (He ran a bar!) I know another heavy drinker who developed gout. His doctor claimed that alcohol exacerbated the condition and he just quit. Again, despite years of drinking, he never seemed to be bothered by having it around. I know other people who definitely _should_ practice abstinence who continue to try moderation and fall back into drunkenness. Unfortunately, we are only at the beginning of the learning curve for _all_ addictive behavior and we are lacking genuine data regarding the process of addiction (particularly alcohol addiction): how much of it is chemical or psychoactive; how much of it is psychological; how to discern the differences; how to test people to determine risk; and even how to treat people (other than AA’s “safe” approach of total abstinence). ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2006, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alcoholic-quandry/345866/37 "2006-02-25T02:00:23Z")
**tom** , you can be a heavy drinker without being an alcoholic, though. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2006, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alcoholic-quandry/345866/38 "2006-02-25T04:33:33Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > **tom** , you can be a heavy drinker without being an alcoholic, though. The point is that we do not even have a consistently reliable definition of “alcoholic.” The AA-influenced definition in the U.S. tends to drag in people who are probably doing their livers no good, but have no “dependence,” as well as people for whom drinking is directly interfering with their ability to live from day to day with a whole continuum of people between. The discussion often becomes a bi-polar shoutfest between those who claim that all alcoholic dependence is a chemical-based illness and those who claim it is simply a bad habit indulged by those with weak wills. My point is simply that while we have a lot of anecdotal evidence that supports conflicting conclusions and some _preliminary_ analysis that is not yet conclusive, the entire range of issues is still far too poorly understood to give a lot of credence to anyone who declares the “truth” on the matter. I support anyone who has found that taking a drink is bad for them and I have physically intervened when some doofus was trying to coax or coerce some other person to drink when the other person had declined. However, I refuse to buy into grand pronouncements about “how it is” when we do not yet know what “it” is. ---
**Author:** ![SanibelMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@SanibelMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanibelMan)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2006, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alcoholic-quandry/345866/39 "2006-02-25T04:59:05Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I down the glass of wine…then I chug the bottle she poured the wine from…then I punch her in the face and throw the bottle at one of those guards with the big hats. > > That’s just how I roll. I want you to know I inhaled my drink and nearly choked to death reading this. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2006, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alcoholic-quandry/345866/40 "2006-02-25T05:32:19Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > As to the OP. I seriously doubt that anyone who meets the Queen, the President or anyone along those lines does so cold and without getting a briefing as to what is going to happen. At that briefing is the time to speak up and say, “I don’t drink.” or even “I don’t drink because I’m an alcoholic.” Yes, the Palace staff brief anyone who is actually going to meet the Queen on the ceremony and what is expected of them. So you sort out the alcohol problem then. (As you’d expect, he Queen is given a brief description of people she is due to meet, so she can make conversation.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alcoholic-quandry/345866.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alcoholic-quandry/345866.md?page=3)