# An Alternative to Discontinuing the Penny **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 10, 2025, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-discontinuing-the-penny/1014142 "2025-02-10T17:46:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2025, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-discontinuing-the-penny/1014142/161 "2025-02-26T01:53:49Z")
> [@Ynnad](#): > > If this catches on, we could have an essentially “penniless”\* marketplace to keep the penny-haters happy and still have some pennies around for the penny-lovers. Please stop calling people “penny haters”. ---
**Author:** ![Ynnad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4491bb/32.png) [@Ynnad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ynnad)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2025, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-discontinuing-the-penny/1014142/162 "2025-02-26T01:54:37Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Please stop calling people “penny haters”. What term would you prefer? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2025, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-discontinuing-the-penny/1014142/163 "2025-02-26T01:57:53Z")
> [@Ynnad](#): > > and/or refusing to accept pennies. How would that work? Here in Philly, all businesses within city limits are required by law to accept cash. A case could be made for a limit on how many pennies could be used per cash transaction. But, if somebody is offering bills, quarters and just a few pennies what grounds would a business have to refuse payment? ---
**Author:** ![Ynnad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4491bb/32.png) [@Ynnad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ynnad)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2025, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-discontinuing-the-penny/1014142/164 "2025-02-26T02:05:24Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Here in Philly, all businesses within city limits are required by law to accept cash. I understand why this is the law in Philadelphia. It is to protect disadvantaged people who don’t have a relationship with a bank. But would a Philadelphia merchant have to accept a one hundred dollar bill for a small purchase of just a couple of bucks? Probably not but I am not familiar with the details of the law. On the other hand, would it really be that big of a burden for a Philadelphia merchant to be required to accept handful of pennies every now and then? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2025, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-discontinuing-the-penny/1014142/165 "2025-02-26T02:10:39Z")
That was my question to you. You said > [@Ynnad](#): > > and/or refusing to accept pennies. How would a total refusal to accept pennies work? They are legal tender made and backed by the US government. IIRC there are precedents for refusing payment of a large debt in only pennies. How would businesses go about refusing a cash payment involving a reasonable amount of pennies? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2025, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-discontinuing-the-penny/1014142/166 "2025-02-26T02:12:24Z")
From the [website](https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm) of the Federal Reserve System > ### Is it legal for a business in the United States to refuse cash as a form of payment? > > There is no federal statute mandating that a private business, a person, or an organization must accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether to accept cash unless there is a state law that says otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2025, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-discontinuing-the-penny/1014142/167 "2025-02-26T02:14:39Z")
As I said, under a law passed a few years ago any business operating within Philadelphia must accept cash. They can accept other forms of payment as well. But they must accept cash. Given that they must accept cash, what grounds do they have to refuse a payment that includes a reasonable amount of pennies? ---
**Author:** ![Ynnad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4491bb/32.png) [@Ynnad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ynnad)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2025, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-discontinuing-the-penny/1014142/168 "2025-02-26T02:14:45Z")
Ninjaed by **Dewey\_FInn.** Presenting cash to a merchant is merely making an offer to purchase. No debt has been created at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Ynnad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4491bb/32.png) [@Ynnad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ynnad)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2025, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-discontinuing-the-penny/1014142/169 "2025-02-26T02:15:31Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Given that they must accept cash, what grounds do they have to refuse a payment that includes a reasonable amount of pennies? Philadelphia might be an exception. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2025, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-discontinuing-the-penny/1014142/170 "2025-02-26T02:19:22Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > cash Define “cash”. What specifically does the law/ordinance say? Legal tender of the United States is what the United States defines as legal tender. The US Government could simple declare pennies as no longer legal tender as of such-and-such date and there really isn’t anything Philadelphia could do about it. ---
**Author:** ![Ynnad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4491bb/32.png) [@Ynnad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ynnad)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2025, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-discontinuing-the-penny/1014142/171 "2025-02-26T02:22:21Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > The US Government could simple declare pennies as no longer legal tender as of such-and-such date The U.S. has never done this with any of its government-issued money. I think this would be a bad idea because of what effect it might have on the reputation of the U.S. Dollar in the international community. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2025, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-discontinuing-the-penny/1014142/172 "2025-02-26T02:22:40Z")
I would have to look up the wording of the law. I’m guessing local papers had more information than the local nightly news. But, I haven’t bothered to read the Philadelphia Inquirer for decades now. The government could declare pennies as no longer legal tender. I am unaware of the US government ever having done such a thing. It would also set a terrible precedent. People would wonder what type of currency the government would declare invalid next. ETA Ninja’d! ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2025, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-discontinuing-the-penny/1014142/173 "2025-02-26T02:24:48Z")
> [@Ynnad](#): > > I think this would be a bad idea because of what effect it might have on the reputation of the U.S. Dollar in the international community. Which seems to have been your belief from the start of this thread. Do you have any cites or information that suggest getting rid of a tiny-value coin (as other countries, like Canada, have already done), will actually make other countries doubt the stability of the U.S. dollar? ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2025, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-discontinuing-the-penny/1014142/174 "2025-02-26T02:25:36Z")
Would it though? If the government gave notice and said “turn your pennies at your bank and they will redeem them, but they are no longer considered legal tender for purchases, etc.”, would that really cause doubt about the value of the dollar? Other countries have done it without crashing into anarchy. ETA: Ninja’d. That’s two in a row for this thread. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2025, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-discontinuing-the-penny/1014142/175 "2025-02-26T02:30:14Z")
Has Canada declared any currency no longer valid or has it simply stopped minting more? I am asking as I genuinely don’t know. OTTOMH we had three failed attempts at a dollar coin in the US. The government simply stopped minting them. They are still worth face value as legal currency. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2025, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-discontinuing-the-penny/1014142/176 "2025-02-26T02:30:19Z")
There’s no need to declare that pennies are no longer legal tender. They could just stop producing them. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2025, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-discontinuing-the-penny/1014142/177 "2025-02-26T02:35:25Z")
A quick search turned up the Phiiladelphia law in question. [§ 9-1132. Cashless Retail Prohibition.](https://codelibrary.amlegal.com/codes/philadelphia/latest/philadelphia_pa/0-0-0-278818) ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2025, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-discontinuing-the-penny/1014142/178 "2025-02-26T02:35:30Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > They are still worth face value as legal currency. As they would be in my scenario. It’s just that only certain entities would be _required_ to accept them. Others could by choice, just like I can choose to accept chickens for payment, but I’m not, generally speaking, allowed to require chickens for payment. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2025, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-discontinuing-the-penny/1014142/179 "2025-02-26T02:35:57Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Has Canada declared any currency no longer valid or has it simply stopped minting more? In the case of the Canadian penny, it’s still apparently valid currency. It’s just that it’s no longer minted, and no longer actively placed into circulation by the Royal Canadian Mint. However, Wikipedia indicates that the Currency Act now established that making a payment in pennies is now only considered “legal tender” for amounts of no more than 25 cents (so, stores are no longer obligated to accept someone trying to use hundreds or thousands of pennies on a single transaction). > **[Penny (Canadian coin) | Abolition (2010–2012)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_(Canadian_coin)#Abolition_(2010%E2%80%932012))** > > Canadian pennies had been a money-losing coin several times since at least 1984. Although several attempts were made to abolish the penny, these were met with resistance as they were considered a necessity to pay provincial sales taxes. Attitudes against the penny began to grow more in 2007 as the year marked the coin's centennial by the Ottawa Mint (now the RCM). During this time, a survey was conducted by the Desjardins Group which mentioned that the government produced about 825 millio Sometim... ---
**Author:** ![Ynnad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4491bb/32.png) [@Ynnad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ynnad)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2025, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-discontinuing-the-penny/1014142/180 "2025-02-26T02:41:56Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Do you have any cites or information that suggest getting rid of a tiny-value coin (as other countries, like Canada, have already done), will actually make other countries doubt the stability of the U.S. dollar? I don’t have any cites for this. However, unlike the Canadian Dollar, the Vanuatu Vatu, the Argentine Peso, and many other currencies, the U.S. is one of the most dominant currencies in international financial transactions. Why take a chance with tarnishing its reputation, even just a little bit, when there is a simple fix to the penny problem. > **[The International Role of the U.S. Dollar](https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/the-international-role-of-the-u-s-dollar-20211006.html)** > > The Federal Reserve Board of Governors in Washington DC. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-discontinuing-the-penny/1014142.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-discontinuing-the-penny/1014142.md?page=10)