# An alternative to Israel that probably would have worked **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 17, 2025, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-israel-that-probably-would-have-worked/1023135 "2025-09-17T20:13:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-israel-that-probably-would-have-worked/1023135/61 "2025-09-23T02:41:09Z")
Most of the land the Jews lived on at the time the state of Israel was declared had been purchased. But purchasing land doesn’t transfer sovereignty. Yes, the state of Israel has also forced a lot of people off their land, but i think the fundamental conflict is over sovereignty. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2025, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-israel-that-probably-would-have-worked/1023135/62 "2025-09-25T00:07:47Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Most of the land the Jews lived on at the time the state of Israel was declared had been purchased. But purchasing land doesn’t transfer sovereignty. Yes, the state of Israel has also forced a lot of people off their land, but i think the fundamental conflict is over sovereignty. I was about to say this. A lot of the turmoil and movement of people was the result of the invasion of the new state of Israel by Syria, Jordan and Egypt. And I wonder how many people here remember the horrendous Palestinian refugee camps, which were not set up by Israel but rather by Jordan on the West Bank. I’ve read the entire General Assembly debate on Israel in 1948. It’s interesting. The Soviet Union and the United States rushed to recognize Israel, it being a brief period in history when anti-Semitism was not in favor. Though the position of the Arab countries, who were mostly supporters of the Germans, was interesting. > [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > I’ve been reading a little history here and there, and it turns out that secession has been a really gnarly legal problem in the past. Of course, instead of actual secession we could just stick them on a reservation overseen by the Bureau of Jewish Affairs. What could possibly go wrong with that scheme? I mean, unless it turns out that the land has oil shale or valuable minerals. And I’m sure they would have sent us to nice schools where we could get a good Christian education. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2025, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-israel-that-probably-would-have-worked/1023135/63 "2025-09-25T03:01:04Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > And I’m sure they would have sent us to nice schools where we could get a good Christian education. Just hope that they don’t engage in a program of [forced sterilization](https://www.theindigenousfoundation.org/articles/a-brief-history-on-the-forced-sterilization-of-indigenous-peoples-in-the-us). And bear in mind that the Nazis didn’t come up with their ‘racial purity’ schemes _de novo_: > **[How the Nazis Used Jim Crow Laws as the Model for Their Race Laws](https://billmoyers.com/story/hitler-america-nazi-race-law/)** > > Not only did Nazi lawyers reveal a deep interest in American race policies, the most radical of them were eager advocates of using American law as a model. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2025, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-israel-that-probably-would-have-worked/1023135/64 "2025-10-07T11:57:57Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > And I’m sure they would have sent us to nice schools where we could get a good Christian education. Nice boarding schools where the boys’ heads would have been shaved, everyone had to wear sleeveless shirts, and letting a word slip out in either Hebrew or Yiddish would have merited a beating. You know, like the Natives were done to. Stripping of religion, change the dress codes, severe punishment for “backsliding”. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2025, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-israel-that-probably-would-have-worked/1023135/65 "2025-10-07T17:08:06Z")
Exactly what I was referring to. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2025, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-israel-that-probably-would-have-worked/1023135/66 "2025-10-08T11:40:52Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I’ve read the entire General Assembly debate on Israel in 1948. It’s interesting. The Soviet Union and the United States rushed to recognize Israel, it being a brief period in history when anti-Semitism was not in favor. In the Soviets’ case, the reason they supported the foundation of Israel was twofold: they wanted to accelerate the end of the British Empire, and they saw this as the next step after India; and because the Jewish leadership at the time was mostly socialist and appreciative of the USSR’s efforts in defeating Nazi Germany, and there was a real chance for a couple of years that Israel would become, if not a member of the Soviet block, then at least a “non-aligned” country. That’s why Truman recognized Israel so quickly - to score points by getting in ahead of the Russians. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2025, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-israel-that-probably-would-have-worked/1023135/67 "2025-10-08T12:58:23Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Since the Zionists at that time were all atheists, it’s hard to see any good reason for that decision other than to cynically pander to (what they viewed as) the foolish religious sentimentality of the Jewish masses. Uh, what? The Yishuv wasn’t really attracting the “Jewish Masses” until people had no choice but to leave Europe. The early Aliyahs were small and opposed by religious Jews, who thought that only the Messiah could return a Jewish state to Israel and that it is heretical to go build one yourself because it implies you think the Messiah _did_ come already. The Turkish province of Syria was chosen because: 1. The local landlords were open to selling land to Jews and had already been doing it for some time, as the Land Reform of 1858 allowed non-Muslim people from outside the Empire purchase land 2. Because it already had a decently sized Jewish population 3. Because Herzl had ties with Ottoman officials and even a way in with the Sultan, which he thought he could use to secure their support Now, as it turned out, Herzl overestimated his support among the Ottomans, which is probably a good thing in hindsight since it would not have been good for the Zionist movement to become strongly linked to a rapidly sinking ship like the Ottoman Empire. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2025, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-israel-that-probably-would-have-worked/1023135/68 "2025-10-08T13:13:48Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Most of the land the Jews lived on at the time the state of Israel was declared had been purchased. But purchasing land doesn’t transfer sovereignty. Sure, but the state that had sovereignty - the Ottoman Empire - collapsed. Now, no one had sovereignty. The people who live in one part of the Ottoman Province of Syria - say, Damascus - don’t automatically have claim over another part of the Ottoman Province of Syria when the Empire collapses. So if the people in Damascus claim Amman but the people in Amman want to form a separate independent country, the collapse of the Ottoman Empire is the point where you hash that out. Just like former Ottoman Syrian residents of Damascus don’t get to claim all of Ottoman Syria just because they lived in part of Ottoman Syria at the time of its collapse, and they don’t get to claim Beirut or Ramallah or Sidon, the Palestinians don’t get to claim all of Israel. At the time that the empire collapsed, there were Jewish people on about 6% of the land and Muslim people on about 8%, and the rest was unoccupied; splitting that up between both groups isn’t an “occupation” or “colonization”, and more than the Palestinians themselves are “colonizing” Syria by taking away land that was “rightfully” part of Ottoman Syria. The Jewish landowners didn’t have sovereignty, but _neither did the Palestinians_. **Nobody** had sovereignty, because the sovereign state governing the region collapsed. They were both Ottoman subjects living in the Province of Syria. Unless your argument is that there should have been one single Arab state with the same borders as the previous Ottoman Syria and anything else is a violation of Syrian sovereignty, I don’t see how sovereignty is involved. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2025, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-israel-that-probably-would-have-worked/1023135/69 "2025-10-08T14:10:32Z")
My argument is that “giving people land” in Montana, or wherever, is not what the Zionists wanted. They wanted sovereignty. And the creation of the state of Israel wasn’t about “who owned this parcel of land”, it was about sovereignty over a region. I think a lot of the previous discussion was about land ownership, and i wanted to say “that wasn’t the point”. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2025, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-israel-that-probably-would-have-worked/1023135/70 "2025-10-08T14:37:36Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > My argument is that “giving people land” in Montana, or wherever, is not what the Zionists wanted. They wanted sovereignty. And the creation of the state of Israel wasn’t about “who owned this parcel of land”, it was about sovereignty over a region. “Sovereignty” is a strong term. Herzl didn’t know that the Ottoman Empire was so close to its collapse. Early Zionists didn’t so much dream about sovereignty and independence as of emancipation and some level of autonomy under Ottoman rule. Jewish residents of the Ottoman Province of Syria served in the Ottoman army as loyal citizens. That plan only ended with the Young Turks revolution as Turkish Nationalism was very strongly opposed to any other national groups in the borders of the Ottoman Empire (see: Armenia), which is why by WWI most Zionists threw their lot in with the British. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2025, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-israel-that-probably-would-have-worked/1023135/71 "2025-10-08T20:02:21Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I think a lot of the previous discussion was about land ownership, and i wanted to say “that wasn’t the point”. No offence, but I’ve found that Americans in particular have a hard time telling the difference between ownership and sovereignty. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2025, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-israel-that-probably-would-have-worked/1023135/72 "2025-10-08T20:10:08Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > “Sovereignty” is a strong term. Herzl didn’t know that the Ottoman Empire was so close to its collapse. Early Zionists didn’t so much dream about sovereignty and independence as of emancipation and some level of autonomy under Ottoman rule. “Some level of autonomy” is sovereignity-lite. > [@Alessan](#): > > No offence, but I’ve found that Americans in particular have a hard time telling the difference between ownership and sovereignty. I don’t know if it’s Americans in particular, but it certainly comes regularly up when talking about the creation of the state of Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2025, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-israel-that-probably-would-have-worked/1023135/73 "2025-10-09T17:28:23Z")
I didn’t say it was, in the short term, _effective_ pandering. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2025, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-israel-that-probably-would-have-worked/1023135/74 "2025-10-09T17:32:19Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > I didn’t say it was, in the short term, _effective_ pandering Do you think Zionist Jews were just _unaware_ of how religious Jews felt about the whole thing, or…? ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2025, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-israel-that-probably-would-have-worked/1023135/75 "2025-10-09T17:35:05Z")
I claim no particular expertise on this issue. Why do you think they made that choice? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2025, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-israel-that-probably-would-have-worked/1023135/76 "2025-10-09T18:42:37Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Why do you think they made that choice? To settle in Israel? It had nothing to do with appealing to religious Jews. I listed the reasons above in response to your earlier post, but in ~~short~~ (this is gonna be a longer post isn’t it): 1. Given the changes to immigration, rights of religious minorities, and foreign land ownership that the Tanzimat Reforms brought about, the Ottoman Empire was one of the few places in the world where it was possible for them to come to - this appealed to the Practical Zionists (my translation, maybe there’s a different name for it in English - they are the camp that said the first step to a Jewish state is to go out and build one) during the First Zionist Congress in 1897, as well as to the people who’d already immigrated there in the decades before the Congress actually formed (which is why by the time the First Zionist Congress decided that Ottoman Syria would be the site of the Jewish State, they were really just recognizing what was already decided). 2. Herzl and the National Zionists (again, my translation, but these are the guys who thought the first step to a Jewish State was a diplomatic guarantee from a major power that one would be established) thought that they had an “in” with the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire, and Herzl would spend the rest of his life trying to convince him to grant the Jewish people a homeland in the Province of Syria. 3. There was certainly an appreciation for Israel specifically as the homeland of the Jewish people _as_ a people, but this was a matter of _historical_ connection, not _religious_ connection. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2025, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-israel-that-probably-would-have-worked/1023135/77 "2025-10-09T20:47:12Z")
Re: no. 3: I really don’t think you’re appreciating the strength of [Romantic Nationalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romantic_nationalism) as a political force. It transformed Europe in the 19th Century, and it lay at the very core of the Zionist movement. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2025, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-israel-that-probably-would-have-worked/1023135/78 "2025-10-09T20:55:39Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Re: no. 3: I really don’t think you’re appreciating the strength of [Romantic Nationalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romantic_nationalism) as a political force. Absolutely, and I think no 3 is the reason that of all the possible sites upon which the Zionist project could have been built, Israel was chosen (though as I noted above, that decision was already long settled by migration to Israel by Jews long before the First Zionist Congress). But that’s very much a historical connection rather than a religious one; it’s not like the Zionists wanted to go back to Israel so they could more accurately fulfill the 26 or so commandments that can only be done in Israel, for example. But 1 and 2 are also very important, because without those Zionists may not have viewed Israel as a _possible_ destination, and if that was the case I don’t think Zionism would have just fizzled out. Too many Jewish people were inspired by the nationalist movements of the 1800s and the ideals of emancipation and self-determination. If Israel was impossible to settle in, for example of the Ottoman Empire had never undergone the Tanzimat, I think Zionism would have found a different national homeland for the Jewish people. Whether it would have succeeded in building a thriving independent state, I don’t know. Certainly fewer Jewish people would have been inspired to join the new country without the historical connection to the land, and I doubt that there’s anywhere on the planet where a Jewish homeland wouldn’t have been met with hostility at that time. ---
**Author:** ![Sooner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sooner/32/7875_2.png) [@Sooner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sooner)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2025, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-israel-that-probably-would-have-worked/1023135/79 "2025-12-31T02:35:10Z")
As I recall the early Zionist’s seriously considered Uganda, as a homeland ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2025, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-israel-that-probably-would-have-worked/1023135/80 "2025-12-31T10:40:49Z")
Some did, including Herzl himself. It was mostly a panicked reaction to the [Kishinev Pogrom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kishinev_pogrom), by delegates who felt that a homeland was needed _now_, and not at some point in the future. It was never a popular alternative, though, and it fell through pretty quickly. If anything, the Uganda Programme (as it was called) helped solidify the Zionist commitment to the Land of Israel. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-alternative-to-israel-that-probably-would-have-worked/1023135.md?page=3)