# An angle of the WTC collapse I'd never seen
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [July 19, 2010, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182 "2010-07-19T01:39:32Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 34
### Author:  [@sparky\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sparky_1)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2010, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/661 "2010-07-28T21:16:41Z")
> [@Deeg](#):
>
> I pulled this quote about the Truther movement from Wikipedia; I thought it was funny:
>
> > [@MIT engineering professor Thomas W. Eagar](#):
> >
> > …adherents of the 9/11 Truth movement …use the reverse scientific method to arrive at their conclusions, as they determine what happened, throw out all the data that doesn’t fit their conclusion, and then hail their findings as the only possible conclusion.
That quote certainly seems to nail it.
---
### Author:  [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2010, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/662 "2010-07-28T21:29:38Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> > [@CurtC](#):
> >
> > Re: _Loose Change_, there was the first, then a second came along to back-pedal away from some of the most egregious claims, for example that there were “pods” under Flight 175 which shot a missile at the building.
> >
> > Then there was a third edition, which I never saw, but from discussions I gather that it pretty much backed off all the more tangible aspects and was a fuzzy, vague implication of conspiracy. The third version was not popular at all AFAIK. After that, Dylan Avery kind of fell off the radar. I wonder myself whether he believes it all still, or he’s just locked into the franchise and doesn’t know how to break out.
>
> Dylan Avery _never_ believed it. _Loose Change_ started off as a fictional movie, using edited news footage to create the illusion of a massive conspiracy. When his demo reel failed to get him any job offers in Hollywood, he redited it and published it on the web as a documentary.
I dunno about that. There was a period where he was subscribing to the pot-induced paranoia quite willingly. When he first got the inklings that some folks had arguments against his film (when Mark Roberts first showed up) his reaction was an instant cry of 'Government Shill!!!".
Part of that was his fellow guys who were full on Conspiracy nutters whispering in his ear, but he was more than happy to be lead.
I think the first crack in his armor was when he had his sense of entitlement violated and came close to facing racketeering charges from the cult he made.
Later cracks came with the Hardfire debates where he not only did not respond to Mark Robert’s arguments, he did not even move an inch (seriously, there was an animated .gif made!) while his crazy buddy babbled nonsense.
This was not to say he still wasn’t a spoiled brat about his work, some of his antics -like his avatar on his forum being of Mark Roberts beating himself up - but his constant cries of ‘I want to make other stuff’ says he really doesn’t want to play this game anymore.
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### Author:  [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2010, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/663 "2010-07-28T21:41:15Z")
> [@Deeg](#):
>
> I pulled this quote about the Truther movement from Wikipedia; I thought it was funny:
>
> > [@MIT engineering professor Thomas W. Eagar](#):
> >
> > …adherents of the 9/11 Truth movement …use the reverse scientific method to arrive at their conclusions, as they determine what happened, throw out all the data that doesn’t fit their conclusion, and then hail their findings as the only possible conclusion.
Yeah, but that’s not really a Truther phenomenon. We’ve seen that over and over in the Holocaust denier, AIDS denier, vaccine denier, cattle mute endoser, religious endoser and This is The Dio Show threads.
You’d think there’d be some specific label for this fallacy.
---
### Author:  [@PBear42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PBear42)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2010, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/664 "2010-07-29T02:36:14Z")
The version of _Loose Change_ I saw was #2, the one available via Google (IIRC) circa March 2005. And, **ivan** , you’ve made clear you’re not interested in having your ignorance fought, so I’ll leave you alone now. Frankly, I don’t argue with Young Earth Creationists either, for the same reason. Enjoy your little game of Daniel in the Lions Den.
---
### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2010, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/665 "2010-07-29T03:01:04Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#):
>
> Yes, **Bryan** , I’ve been ducking your questions all along out of fear of being exposed as the uneducated “twoofer” I really am. :rolleyes:
I figured you simply _couldn’t_ answer my questions. I hadn’t even gotten around to calling you a truther or twoofer or whatever.
> [@](#):
>
> Truth is, I don’t find your posts very interesting, so I tend to move onto the next poster.
If you were interested in facts, I daresay my posts would be interesting, as facts are what they try to discuss.
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### Author:  [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2010, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/666 "2010-07-29T04:47:29Z")
> [@outlierrn](#):
>
> > [@Deeg](#):
> >
> > I pulled this quote about the Truther movement from Wikipedia; I thought it was funny:
> >
> > > [@MIT engineering professor Thomas W. Eagar](#):
> > >
> > > …adherents of the 9/11 Truth movement …use the reverse scientific method to arrive at their conclusions, as they determine what happened, throw out all the data that doesn’t fit their conclusion, and then hail their findings as the only possible conclusion.
>
> Yeah, but that’s not really a Truther phenomenon. We’ve seen that over and over in the Holocaust denier, AIDS denier, vaccine denier, cattle mute endoser, religious endoser and This is The Dio Show threads.
>
> You’d think there’d be some specific label for this fallacy.
Cranial anal inversion syndrome?
---
### Author:  [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2010, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/667 "2010-07-29T04:48:40Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#):
>
> > [@ivan\_astikov](#):
> >
> > What, did you think I’d scuttled off with my tail between my legs? Because Big, Bad Cisco pop’s up with a personal anecdote?
>
> I dunno about Cisco, but I’ve asked a number of questions and raised a number of points that have gone unanswered. If you’re scuttle-free, how about giving them a shot?
He hasn’t answered mine either. Maybe we should start a club.
---
### Author:  [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2010, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/668 "2010-07-29T08:26:25Z")
> [@Rick](#):
>
> > [@outlierrn](#):
> >
> > > [@Deeg](#):
> > >
> > > I pulled this quote about the Truther movement from Wikipedia; I thought it was funny:
> > >
> > > > [@MIT engineering professor Thomas W. Eagar](#):
> > > >
> > > > …adherents of the 9/11 Truth movement …use the reverse scientific method to arrive at their conclusions, as they determine what happened, throw out all the data that doesn’t fit their conclusion, and then hail their findings as the only possible conclusion.
> >
> > Yeah, but that’s not really a Truther phenomenon. We’ve seen that over and over in the Holocaust denier, AIDS denier, vaccine denier, cattle mute endoser, religious endoser and This is The Dio Show threads.
> >
> > You’d think there’d be some specific label for this fallacy.
>
> Cranial anal inversion syndrome?
How about The Cartesian Corruption Fallacy; I believe, therefore I’m right.
---
### Author:  [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2010, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/669 "2010-07-29T11:55:01Z")
Are some of you insinuating that the questions I have “ducked” are the all-important ones?
Also, bearing in mind how the vast majority of you in this thread seem to think my reasoning ability is non-existent, why are you so interested in my replies?
It wouldn’t be so you can try and make yourselves look smart by scoring points against the thread idiot, would it?
No? Forgive me for reading you wrong then. Care to tell me why it is you value my opinion then?
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### Author:  [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2010, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/670 "2010-07-29T13:05:55Z")
I think most of us here are optimists and are holding out hope that you can still learn, even though you’ve steadfastly refused so far. The questions you’ve been asked are some of the all-important ones, because forcing yourself to address them will show you where you’ve been going wrong.
---
### Author:  [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2010, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/671 "2010-07-29T14:27:07Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#):
>
> Also, bearing in mind how the vast majority of you in this thread seem to think my reasoning ability is non-existent, why are you so interested in my replies?
Personally, I’m waiting to see if you can top yourself again.
I thought you had nowhere to go after the “Maybe the conspirators ditched a plane in the oceans of West Virginia” suggestion. I’ll admit I seriously underestimated you.
You definitely went above and beyond the call with this exchange:
ivan: “It’s suspicious to me that there are no bodies in the Pentagon crash photos. Clearly there’s a conspiracy.”
derbunker: “Here’s a link to pictures of the crash victims.”
ivan: “Those bodies look suspicious to me. Clearly there’s a conspiracy.”
Admittedly, it’s going to be tough to outdo the combo of illogic, chutzpah and unintended self-parody that you displayed, but I have faith in you.
(Note: All quotes above are paraphrases.)
---
### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2010, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/672 "2010-07-29T15:03:31Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#):
>
> Are some of you insinuating that the questions I have “ducked” are the all-important ones?
I dunno about all-important, but for the most part they address issues that you claim hint at shenanigans.
> [@](#):
>
> Also, bearing in mind how the vast majority of you in this thread seem to think my reasoning ability is non-existent, why are you so interested in my replies?
Well, talking to people who agree with you is boring. There’s no challenge to it. I can understand that being appealing to some people, but for me personally it wears thin fast.
> [@](#):
>
> It wouldn’t be so you can try and make yourselves look smart by scoring points against the thread idiot, would it?
This being GD, we’re forbidden to state or even strongly imply the personal assessment you describe. Speaking for myself, I’ve tried to frame questions without letting it get personal, to (if anything) make myself look like someone who is capable of debating facts without rancor.
> [@](#):
>
> No? Forgive me for reading you wrong then. Care to tell me why it is you value my opinion then?
I’m personally curious how you’d respond to this fairly gentle poking of holes in your pro-conspiracy arguments. I was hoping you’d come back with some argument that addressed this level 1 poking so we could move on to the meatier level 2.
But if you can’t or won’t and level 1 questioning (as I call it) seems like just some kind of personal attack on you, I guess we won’t be discussing any more facts about September 11, then.
So, how about this weather, huh?
---
### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2010, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/673 "2010-07-29T15:05:35Z")
> [@42fish](#):
>
> (Note: All quotes above are paraphrases.)
Darn. I was just about to go looking for an “oceans of West Virginia” post.
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### Author:  [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2010, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/674 "2010-07-29T15:28:47Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#):
>
> > [@42fish](#):
> >
> > (Note: All quotes above are paraphrases.)
>
> Darn. I was just about to go looking for an “oceans of West Virginia” post.
Well, “ocean in the middle of West Virginia” shows up in post #130. Close enough for jazz?
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2010, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/675 "2010-07-29T15:46:16Z")
> [@42fish](#):
>
> > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#):
> >
> > > [@42fish](#):
> > >
> > > (Note: All quotes above are paraphrases.)
> >
> > Darn. I was just about to go looking for an “oceans of West Virginia” post.
>
> Well, “ocean in the middle of West Virginia” shows up in post #130. Close enough for jazz?
Yes, but **ivan astikov** didn’t say it. I said it in response to his comment that American Airlines 77 disappeared over a large body of water, which it definitely did not. Not that I really need the affirmation, **ivan astikov** , but for the record your refusal to own up to basic misunderstandings or errors like that is not doing you any favors here and it contributes to the frustrated tone people are taking when addressing you.
---
### Author:  [@PBear42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PBear42)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2010, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/676 "2010-07-29T16:10:06Z")
What **CurtC** said.
Also, a typo correction. It was circa Mar 2006 when I first ran into Loose Change, not 2005.
---
### Author:  [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2010, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/677 "2010-07-29T17:08:12Z")
Just for the record, there wouldn’t need to be an ocean in Virginia. Or are you saying there was no body of water within the distance Flight 77 is supposed to have travelled? Have you any guesses why Flight 77 went the scenic route on its path to the Pentagon- if that’s actually the path it really took? Do you think maybe the hijackers wanted to drop something off in country, or do you think they just weren’t in that much of a hurry?
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### Author:  [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/678 "2010-07-29T17:13:24Z")
[The flight path of AA 77](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:911_commission_AA77_path.png). Pray tell, show me the large body of water on that route.
That turn around represents the **35 minutes after takeoff** it took the hijackers to take control of the plane.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2010, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/679 "2010-07-29T17:14:57Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#):
>
> Just for the record, there wouldn’t need to be an ocean in Virginia. Or are you saying there was no body of water within the distance Flight 77 is supposed to have travelled?
So let me get this straight: you think they could have crashed the a jet in a river or a lake, and not only would no one have seen the plane gone down or approach the scene, but nobody would have found the plane in the nine years since? How the hell would that work? Would the plane dissolve in water?
> [@](#):
>
> Have you any guesses why Flight 77 went the scenic route on its path to the Pentagon- if that’s actually the path it really took?
What scenic route? [The plane was hijacked and then made a straight line back to Washington.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/guides/456900/456983/img/1157109072.gif)
---
### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2010, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/680 "2010-07-29T17:39:00Z")
[Here’s a map of West Virginia (with a little of Virginia and Ohio on the edges) so everybody can see all of the enormous bodies of water where Flight 77 could have been hidden.](http://images.nationmaster.com/images/motw/united_states/west_virginia_90.jpg) Just for the record this is a plane that was about 150 feet long, 120 feet wide, 40 feet tall, and probably weighed 100,000 kilos. I have no idea why anybody would make the plane disappear and then crash another plane or a missile into the Pentagon, as that seems at least twice as difficult as just hijacking and crashing a plane. There’s no scale on the map, unfortunately. [Here’s another look at the waterways of West Virginia](http://blogs.wvgazette.com/coaltattoo/files/2009/06/west-virginia-map2.jpg), where a jetliner is buried and has never been noticed by any boater, fisherman, small plane pilot, tourist, hiker, or hell, curious conspiracy theorist.
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