# An angle of the WTC collapse I'd never seen
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [July 19, 2010, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182 "2010-07-19T01:39:32Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 36
### Author:  [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2010, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/701 "2010-07-29T19:13:27Z")
> [@Frazzled](#):
>
> But now I’m coming around on him. His latest theory on Flight 77 tells me he doesn’t really believe this stuff either. I think he just enjoys taking us for the ride, enjoys watching us get riled up, and enjoys knowing that he has single handedly taken this thread to over 700 posts. I think his motive is quite clear - he wants to get to a thousand!
>
> Nice job Ivan! You had me going there for a while!
> [@ivan\_astikov](#):
>
> I’ll thank you when I get there, but I couldn’t have done it without you guise.
So you don’t actually believe this stuff?
---
### Author:  [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/702 "2010-07-29T19:16:40Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#):
>
> _Were_ the vast majority of Americans (by which I assume at least ~200 million) watching their TVs when that fourth flight disappeared?
>
> When challenged on one doubtful claim, ivan, you seem fond of making another. Besides, it doesn’t matter - did the people on the many fishing boats and cargo ships in Lake Erie all come to shore to watch TV that morning? If not, you’d have to explain why none of them reported a plane crash or found subsequent debris.
Shall we start a poll - Where Were You When The Towers Were Struck?
I imagine 95+% will say they were in front of a tv screen, 3% will say “Hey, I was busy doing shit!” and the other 2% will say “What towers”.
Okay. Maybe not in a poll on here… but if you asked the general public, it’d be a different matter.
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### Author:  [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/703 "2010-07-29T19:18:25Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#):
>
> So you don’t actually believe this stuff?
Define “believe”?
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### Author:  [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/704 "2010-07-29T19:19:49Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#):
>
> It wouldn’t be so you can try and make yourselves look smart by scoring points against the thread idiot, would it?
Just want to say–this is exactly why I read these sorts of threads. They’re like the internet equivalent of _Survivor_.
---
### Author:  [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/705 "2010-07-29T19:19:49Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#):
>
> > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#):
> >
> > _Were_ the vast majority of Americans (by which I assume at least ~200 million) watching their TVs when that fourth flight disappeared?
> >
> > When challenged on one doubtful claim, ivan, you seem fond of making another. Besides, it doesn’t matter - did the people on the many fishing boats and cargo ships in Lake Erie all come to shore to watch TV that morning? If not, you’d have to explain why none of them reported a plane crash or found subsequent debris.
>
> Shall we start a poll - Where Were You When The Towers Were Struck?
>
> I imagine 95+% will say they were in front of a tv screen, 3% will say “Hey, I was busy doing shit!” and the other 2% will say “What towers”.
>
> Okay. Maybe not in a poll on here… but if you asked the general public, it’d be a different matter.
I tend to doubt that would be the response from us east coasters. The attack came while many of us were at work.
---
### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/706 "2010-07-29T19:24:01Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#):
>
> > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#):
> >
> > _Were_ the vast majority of Americans (by which I assume at least ~200 million) watching their TVs when that fourth flight disappeared?
> >
> > When challenged on one doubtful claim, ivan, you seem fond of making another. Besides, it doesn’t matter - did the people on the many fishing boats and cargo ships in Lake Erie all come to shore to watch TV that morning? If not, you’d have to explain why none of them reported a plane crash or found subsequent debris.
>
> Shall we start a poll - Where Were You When The Towers Were Struck?
>
> I imagine 95+% will say they were in front of a tv screen, 3% will say “Hey, I was busy doing shit!” and the other 2% will say “What towers”.
>
> Okay. Maybe not in a poll on here… but if you asked the general public, it’d be a different matter.
Well, that’s just plain rude - answering a question (well, responding to it, anyway) about cargo boats with a willful non-sequitor about polls.
---
### Author:  [@Frazzled](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frazzled)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2010, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/707 "2010-07-29T19:27:08Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#):
>
> Shall we start a poll - Where Were You When The Towers Were Struck?
>
> I imagine 95+% will say they were in front of a tv screen, 3% will say “Hey, I was busy doing shit!” and the other 2% will say “What towers”.
>
> Okay. Maybe not in a poll on here… but if you asked the general public, it’d be a different matter.
I was at work when the first plane struck. When the scale of the events of the day became clear we tuned every TV in the office to the news. Even so, most of us tried half heartedly to work that day while still paying close attention to the latest developments.
At lunch time I went to the cafeteria (I didn’t bring my lunch that day). Obviously they had been working because there was plenty of hot food and plenty of people eating it.
When I looked outside (I was on the 10th floor of a high rise building overlooking a major highway) I could see plenty of cars and trucks all going about doing their business. Shipments still needed to be made, mail still needed to be delivered, work still needed to be done. Sure, we all knew what was happening that day, but we had livelihoods that we needed to look to as well.
When I went home that evening I stayed in and watched TV and that was when I noticed the absolute stillness of the day, nobody was out for the evening. But during the day, it was pretty much business as usual (only somber).
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### Author:  [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2010, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/708 "2010-07-29T19:33:06Z")
Waiting for ivan to [FLOP!](http://www.kevinandkell.com/2009/kk0913.html)
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### Author:  [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2010, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/709 "2010-07-29T20:00:39Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#):
>
> Yes, because Alex Jones is truly representative of the type of people who are interested in conspiracies
I said “Alex Jones and _his ilk_”; i.e.: Steven Jones, David Ray Griffin, Judy Wood, Richard Gage, John Lear, David Icke, etc.
> [@](#):
>
> - all you skeptics are represented by truly rational chaps like James Randi, Mark Roberts and other stalwarts of The Fight Against Woo. \*
[Mark Roberts has received death threats from the “Truth” Movement](http://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/semiliterateparanoiacswhofantasizeaboutt) so he must be doing something right.
---
### Author:  [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2010, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/710 "2010-07-29T20:13:25Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#):
>
> Just for the record, there wouldn’t need to be an ocean in Virginia. Or are you saying there was no body of water within the distance Flight 77 is supposed to have travelled? Have you any guesses why Flight 77 went the scenic route on its path to the Pentagon- if that’s actually the path it really took? Do you think maybe the hijackers wanted to drop something off in country, or do you think they just weren’t in that much of a hurry?
> [@ivan\_astikov](#):
>
> Swing that big loop up to 10, 11 o’clock and you’ve got the whole of Lake Erie to dump it in. And while everyone is watching the tv seeing what’s happening in NY, how many people do you think would be outside to see it happen? Go on, you’ll be telling me they were followed on radar or some such shit, like that sort of thing couldn’t be faked, bearing in mind no black box was going to be recovered.
> [@ivan\_astikov](#):
>
> As I’ve just mentioned, the vast majority of Americans were glued to a tv screen. Makes you wonder what all those people who said they’d seen a plane were doing outdoors anyway. Dare I say “shills”?
> [@ivan\_astikov](#):
>
> I get the feeling some of you are awaiting some sort of thanks for putting me right on all these elements of wrongness I’m raising? Anyone would think I’d dragged you in here unwillingly and forced you to read my nonsensical jabbering.
> [@ivan\_astikov](#):
>
> > [@Indistinguishable](#):
> >
> > So you don’t actually believe this stuff?
>
> Define “believe”?
Holy crap, ive. This is way far out there. Certainly an intifada against your occasional claims of being agnostic towards the whole thing. I really hope the membership here is intelligent enough to be extremely reluctant to engage you in the future. Beyond being a diamond-hard troother, you’re a \_ \_ \_ \_, and any hypothetical lurker can clearly see that.
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### Author:  [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/711 "2010-07-29T20:39:30Z")
I live in Idaho - I was at work (at a government office, in fact - transportation department). We had no TVs on site, and while there gradually were some people around the office mentioning having seen some stuff online about it, I myself never stopped working to look into it. I was, after all, on the clock.
I do have to concede that I didn’t see any airliners passing overhead, though. Presumably this fact will be taken as vindicating **ivan** ’s opinions.
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### Author:  [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2010, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/712 "2010-07-29T20:51:10Z")
So, let me get this straight. Most people in the country were glued to the TV so they could watch the planes crash into the towers. Because it was the biggest disaster ever.
Except the disaster didn’t happen until the planes actually crashed into the towers. Until that happened it was, “Hey, there seems to maybe have been a hijacking. Maybe more than one. Planes are being grounded, no one knows what’s going on”. That might get a few people glued to their TVs to follow the hijacking, but most people don’t stay home from work just because there’s some random important news story.
It’s only when the crashes happened that the news went apeshit, when all the TV channels went to all 9/11 all the time.
I remember clearly, because I was supposed to have a job interview that day, and I was going about my business getting my day ready, and it was only when I went online to check my mail that I noticed the news. And by then the crashes had already happened.
It is impossible for 95% of the public to have been watching TV when the towers were struck, because it was not the most important news story of the decade until after the towers were struck.
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/713 "2010-07-29T20:56:20Z")
> [@begbert2](#):
>
> I live in Idaho - I was at work (at a government office, in fact - transportation department). We had no TVs on site, and while there gradually were some people around the office mentioning having seen some stuff online about it, I myself never stopped working to look into it. I was, after all, on the clock.
>
> I do have to concede that I didn’t see any airliners passing overhead, though. Presumably this fact will be taken as vindicating **ivan** ’s opinions.
There wouldn’t happen to be a large lake near you, with maybe a humongous shadow in the middle…say, about the size and shape of an airliner?
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### Author:  [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/714 "2010-07-29T21:02:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> > [@begbert2](#):
> >
> > I live in Idaho - I was at work (at a government office, in fact - transportation department). We had no TVs on site, and while there gradually were some people around the office mentioning having seen some stuff online about it, I myself never stopped working to look into it. I was, after all, on the clock.
> >
> > I do have to concede that I didn’t see any airliners passing overhead, though. Presumably this fact will be taken as vindicating **ivan** ’s opinions.
>
> There wouldn’t happen to be a large lake near you, with maybe a humongous shadow in the middle…say, about the size and shape of an airliner?
We have several small ponds in parks and a narrow windy river or two - would that do?
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2010, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/715 "2010-07-29T21:13:37Z")
> [@begbert2](#):
>
> We have several small ponds in parks and a narrow windy river or two - would that do?
Only if they have plane-shaped holes in them. All crashing planes leave plane-shaped holes. I read that somewhere.
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### Author:  [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/716 "2010-07-29T21:30:46Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#):
>
> Shall we start a poll - Where Were You When The Towers Were Struck?
>
> I imagine 95+% will say they were in front of a tv screen, 3% will say “Hey, I was busy doing shit!” and the other 2% will say “What towers”.
Bullshit. \*Eventually \*a substantial fraction of the country was watching what happened on TV, but toward the beginning people were just going about their daily routines.
For example, I heard about the first plane on NPR when I was driving to the Y to swim laps. But at the time they didn’t even know it was a jetliner. I certainly wasn’t going to turn around race home just because the pilot of a single-engine plane flew off course.
By the time I finished swimming the radio said that both towers had been hit by jetliners. It was clear it was terrorism. So when I got home I turned on the TV just in time to see the first tower collapse.
But if I hadn’t happened to have been listening to NPR on the way to the Y, I wouldn’t have known \*anything \*way going on until it was long over. Not everyone is plugged into the news 24 hours a day. And many people who did know about it didn’t just drop everything to watch. They kept on doing their jobs or commuting to work.
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### Author:  [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2010, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/717 "2010-07-29T21:32:18Z")
**Ivan** , does this new discussion of Alka Seltzer Airlines and their water-soluble Flight 77 mean that you’ve accepted what happened to WTC7, as you mentioned that you accepted what happened to WTC1 & 2?
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### Author:  [@sparky\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sparky_1)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2010, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/718 "2010-07-29T23:21:05Z")
Well, this _was_ a fun debate, though now it’s more like beating the skeletal remains of a horse.
I remember that morning being in my cubicle and the receptionist came in all aflush saying a plane hit a building. I thought nothing of it, remembering a recent case of a small plane that had collided with a building (forget where).
As the day wore on, most of us tried to piece together what had happened, but mostly continued working. It wasn’t until the drive home that the enormity of it all registered with me. Strangely, I found myself wanting one of those small American flags on a wood stick so I could tie it to my roofrack. I found it kinda remarkable the next day when I started seeing the flag everywhere. Anyway, that’s for another thread.
So to reinforce the other posters, most people in my area (NH) carried on their day until sometime afternoon. I know of no friends who stopped everything and stared at a tv. Hell, most didn’t know until after the fact.
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2010, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/719 "2010-07-29T23:30:58Z")
> [@sparky\_1](#):
>
> Well, this _was_ a fun debate, though now it’s more like beating the skeletal remains of a horse.
So can we start congratulating each other yet?
Bravo! Bully! Sent the truthers a-packing, all! Jolly good!
---
### Author:  [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2010, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-angle-of-the-wtc-collapse-id-never-seen/547182/720 "2010-07-29T23:46:04Z")
> [@sparky\_1](#):
>
> Well, this _was_ a fun debate, though now it’s more like beating the skeletal remains of a horse.
You beat the horse? Does that mean you won?!
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