# An Apollo 11 'What If?' **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 10, 2013, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655 "2013-06-10T21:05:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/1 "2013-06-10T21:05:40Z")
I’m currently reading, _‘Carrying The Fire’_, an autobiography by the third Apollo 11 crewmember, Michael Collins. _(please don’t give away the ending)_ 😉 Its an interesting read, though very much of its time, Collins does hint at a certain level of tension between the three men on the mission and that Buzz Aldrin was more than a little put out that he wouldn’t be the first man on the moon _(something that I’m sure he’d be the first to admit himself, and you can’t really blame him)_ Anyway, on with the scenario! _wavy screen effect as we dissolve to July 21 1969_ A significent percentage of the worlds population is watching on television for the historic moment of humanities first steps on another world, it seems to be taking a little longer than expected and there is a sigh of relief as the chunky boots of the spacesuited astronaut appears out the access hatch, climbs carefully down the ladder and hops the last few feet to the ground, a staticy voice comes over the airwaves and utters the legendary words: “Ah, Houston, its a beautiful day here at Tranquility, sure wish you guys could join me…” Yes, its _Buzz Aldrin_ as first man on the moon and not _Neil Armstrong_, when questioned Buzz just says Neil wasn’t feeling well and couldn’t make it out of the lander. So, what happens now, does NASA attempt to play it by ear and smooth things along? What about afterwards when the Lander returns to Columbia and Armstrong’s body is found on board? Do NASA and the authorities attempt to cover it up? What happens if and when the truth comes out, that Aldrin took the opportunity to incapacitate Armstrong to fulfull his dream? Does it make a difference if he tries to cover it up, leaving an element of legitimate doubt? Or what if he blatantly admits it and just doesn’t return to Columbia? Yes, its an extreme and unlikely scenario but a lot more plausible than the theories that the landing never happened at all! \*note this is just a ‘what if’, I have nothing but the utmost respect for both Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong, they along with the other astronauts and cosmonauts were very much my heroes when I was young and to a large extent remain so today ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/2 "2013-06-10T21:13:11Z")
You’re really internalizing your username, aren’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/3 "2013-06-10T21:15:55Z")
Hah, its surprising how often its appropriate! ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/4 "2013-06-10T22:02:32Z")
Well… Who can know? The scenario is so immensely unlikely… My bet is that the authorities go with full disclosure. They might invent some kind of “space psychosis” as an explanation, but they would know better than to try to cover it up. The Navy recovery divers and the helicopter crew would know – and that means the whole world would know. Aldrin might get arrested, charged, and tried…or he might get hospitalized, treated, and pardoned. My bet is on the latter. Also…end of the entire Apollo program in a screeching halt. Probably the end of the American space effort entirely, for a good thirty or forty years, anyway. Congress would have to fight like hell just to keep weather, communication, and spy sats going. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/5 "2013-06-10T22:14:13Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Well… Who can know? The scenario is so immensely unlikely… It certainly is, but I was thinking of something I heard once before that the authorities were worried that if ordered to abort the landing Armstrong’s psychological profile suggested he might just ignore the order and land anyway, and damn the consequences. I put less credence in that now _(not that I was convinced before)_ after reading in Collins book that the Apollo 11 crew were told that if they had to abort their landing they’d get first preference for any subsequent landing _(which still doesn’t mean they’d get to do it of course, anything could happen to prevent them having another shot at it in the interim)_. My point is that if Aldrin had decided to go ahead and be first man on the moon anyway there was really nothing anyone could do to stop him at that point _(if generic you don’t like using real people just replace Armstrong and Aldrin with fictional astronaut A and fictional astronaut B)_. > [@Trinopus](#): > > My bet is that the authorities go with full disclosure. They might invent some kind of “space psychosis” as an explanation, but they would know better than to try to cover it up. The Navy recovery divers and the helicopter crew would know – and that means the whole world would know. > > Aldrin might get arrested, charged, and tried…or he might get hospitalized, treated, and pardoned. My bet is on the latter. > > Also…end of the entire Apollo program in a screeching halt. Probably the end of the American space effort entirely, for a good thirty or forty years, anyway. Congress would have to fight like hell just to keep weather, communication, and spy sats going. Thanks for the answer! ---
**Author:** ![Frazzled](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frazzled/32/3368_2.png) [@Frazzled](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frazzled)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/6 "2013-06-10T22:57:03Z")
The astronauts were so wired up with medical gear that Houston should know beyond doubt that Neil was murdered. Once they realize they have a mad man on the surface I suspect they’d order Collins to immediately abort and return to Earth without Buzz. There’s no sense in risking his life as well, and it’s too risky to try to restrain Buzz once he returned to the Command Module. Without the command module Buzz would have no way of leaving the moon. With the very public failure of the mission there’s no way NASA could scrape it under the rug. They’d probably still try to portray Buzz as a hero with a serious mental illness. Questions about how much space travel affected his mental state would undoubtedly end the program. ---
**Author:** ![toofs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4491bb/32.png) [@toofs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toofs)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/7 "2013-06-10T23:17:23Z")
The director would yell “cut” and reshoot the scene. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/8 "2013-06-10T23:23:17Z")
I think you and I might be resentful of losing a #1 spot, but Aldrin, Armstrong and Collins were all consummate professionals who were there to do a difficult job - as seen in [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNj1UOgacMA) in-depth interview he says that he was not jealous as Armstrong was supremely qualified (as well as clarifying if the moon exists and answering whether man will ever walk on the sun, in winter for example). But…let’s not fight the hypothetical. The biggest upshot would obviously be a total overhaul on NASA selection processes and the psychological health of astronauts, which would probably put the rest of the Apollo program on hiatus for a while. I don’t think they’d cover it up; Nixon even had a contingency speech to deliver if the crew was lost, plus as in most conspiracies there are too many people for it to be viable. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/9 "2013-06-11T00:31:45Z")
I’ll go along with the consensus that this is a virtually impossibility. But to play along with the premise, I don’t see how a cover-up would be possible. Obviously, Armstrong’s death will be revealed at some point. But Aldrin said Armstrong was alive in a live broadcast heard by millions of people. What possible explanation can he come up with for that? ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/10 "2013-06-11T00:34:02Z")
I don’t know if the scenario in the OP is even possible. I’ve read that the Lunar Module crew cabin was so cramped that there wasn’t room for the two astronauts to get past each other inside; the mission commander had to be the first out and last in because the hatch was on his side. If Armstrong was completely incapacitated, perhaps Aldrin could have climbed over his body, but then I don’t know if the lunar ascent and rendezvous could have been flown by one person. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/11 "2013-06-11T02:21:17Z")
You might not remember, but the Apollo 11 splashdown was [televised](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rl1k2WwX2sM). In addition to keeping the entire crew of the U.S.S. Hornet quiet, you’d also have a whole passel of reporters on board the ship that would have to be silenced. So, the whole coverup thing wouldn’t work very well. In fact, the only scenario I can possibly imagine is that shortly after lunar landing, there’s a sudden interruption in all communications and telemetry with the Eagle. When power comes back, Buzz would tell a shocked world that Armstrong had a heart attack, or catastrophic accident or something. Of course the problem with that is that NASA would immediately tell Aldrin to get the hell out of there and he’d never have a chance to open the door, much less walk on the moon. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/12 "2013-06-11T03:45:56Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > . . . the mission commander had to be the first out and last in because the hatch was on his side. . . . I believe this is incorrect. [Here is a diagram that shows the hatch directly between the two stations.](http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/diagrams/ad016.gif) Either man can stoop and go through without having to go past the other. Of course, either man could prevent the other man from exiting, too… ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/13 "2013-06-11T04:06:12Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I believe this is incorrect. [Here is a diagram that shows the hatch directly between the two stations.](http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/diagrams/ad016.gif) Either man can stoop and go through without having to go past the other. > > Of course, either man could prevent the other man from exiting, too… Ah, apparently I had misread things, but with a kernel of truth as well. From [here](http://www.nbcnews.com/id/48790315/ns/technology_and_science-space/t/debunking-myths-about-neil-armstrong/#.Ubag5Ofql8E): > [@](#): > > Myth: Armstrong “pulled rank” and got priority over his shipmate, Buzz Aldrin, who originally had been slated to be first man on the Moon. > > Fact: On Gemini missions, the co-pilot did the spacewalks, while the commander remained in the spacecraft to keep control. But the deciding factor on Apollo seems to have been that the hinge on the inward-opening lunar module door was along the right edge, which meant that when the door was first opened, the commander had a clear path to crawl backward through the low door. The second astronaut could then easily move into the unoccupied commander’s space, and repeat the door manipulation. Getting the second pilot out first, while the commander was still in his workspace, would have been tricky in the cramped cabin. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/14 "2013-06-11T05:00:30Z")
Ah! Cool! The diagram I found didn’t indicate the hinges! (Or if it did, it was too small for me to see.) ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/15 "2013-06-11T06:44:57Z")
The decision whether the Mission Commander or the Lunar Module Pilot would exit the LM first was made in 1961 or 62 when Grumman decided to put the hinge for the door on the right side. Maybe later, because first it was going to be a docking hatch, then a round door, and finally a square door. In 1969, it was said Armstrong went first because he was a civilian unlike Aldrin, who was USAF. But that was BS. Buzz did campaign to be the first man out. At one point, Slayton did have both Neil and Buzz, fully suited up with backpacks, in the LM simulator and have them switch places so Buzz could leave first. That didn’t work very well. As for if Aldrin murdered Armstrong so he could be first, I wonder if Buzz knew how to fly the ascent stage from the lunar surface to a rendezvous with the command module. Yes, I know he was “Doc Rendezvous”, which was great for using a sextant and calculating stuff, but is not quite the same as operating the throttle and thruster controls. Here’s a “what if” I enjoy thinking about. It’s been suggested that before the flight during a discussion about the first words, Collins was supposed to have said to Armstrong, “If you had any balls, you’d say 'Oh my God, what is that?” and cut your mike". [Fast forward to 14:30](http://youtu.be/0vIHLgJvB0g) ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/16 "2013-06-11T06:48:31Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > I think you and I might be resentful of losing a #1 spot, but Aldrin, Armstrong and Collins were all consummate professionals who were there to do a difficult job - as seen in [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNj1UOgacMA) in-depth interview he says that he was not jealous as Armstrong was supremely qualified (as well as clarifying if the moon exists and answering whether man will ever walk on the sun, in winter for example). I don’t have time for a proper reply but Collins makes clear _(and I’ve read elsewhere)_ that Aldrin _was_ somewhat envious that Armstrong would be first _(prior arrangements were that he would be first out until Armstrong exercised his perrogative as mission commander to go first for example)_ and Collins describes how he himself wanted to be first and was disappointed when it became clear he wouldn’t be _(detailed as Command Module commander, not Lunar Module crew for example)_ But he sucked it up and got on with it as did Aldrin, but the envy/jealousy was certainly there, at least to an extent. Consumate professionals certainly, but also only human. If they _weren’t_ somewhat jealous of Armstrong that would make them less, not more, human. Thanks for the answers everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/17 "2013-06-11T06:50:46Z")
I should have said fast forward to 13:30, but the edit window timed out. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/18 "2013-06-11T11:28:27Z")
It could have happened the other way where Armstrong offed Aldrin, but that would be a major buzzkill. I think it would have been easy for one to smuggle in bit of cyanide and spike the other’s food with it when they were distracted. “Hey look, Neil! A moon weasel!” I’m not sure there would have been room for Buzz to get his spacesuit on over a dead Neil or if it can be done unassisted. There was also the matter of the broken switch that Buzz had to hold in with a ballpoint during ascent, perhaps he wouldn’t have been able to lift off solo. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/19 "2013-06-11T12:41:05Z")
Aldrin wouldn’t have to kill Armstrong. It would be enough to break his knee with a crowbar. Yes, they were highly professional, but also highly \*intensely \*competitive. Winning the silver medal in Moon Landing just isn’t good enough for some people. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/20 "2013-06-11T13:33:07Z")
Incidentally, the [“0836 whimper”](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=5GNhuI38sxs#t=155s) heard on the mission recordings prove that there were four, not three, men on board Apollo 11. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655.md?page=2)