# An Apollo 11 'What If?' **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 10, 2013, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655 "2013-06-10T21:05:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/21 "2013-06-11T14:53:08Z")
> [@Frazzled](#): > > The astronauts were so wired up with medical gear that Houston should know beyond doubt that Neil was murdered. That’s true. As soon as Neil’s heartbeat went missing Houston would have been all over it. If there had been a struggle, they’d have been aware of that too. What a strange OP. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/22 "2013-06-11T17:08:51Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > It could have happened the other way where Armstrong offed Aldrin, but that would be a major buzzkill. Touche’! > [@Trinopus](#): > > I believe this is incorrect. [Here is a diagram that shows the hatch directly between the two stations.](http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/diagrams/ad016.gif) Either man can stoop and go through without having to go past the other. > > Of course, either man could prevent the other man from exiting, too… …perhaps by strongarming him? ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/23 "2013-06-11T18:14:34Z")
> [@Frazzled](#): > > The astronauts were so wired up with medical gear that Houston should know beyond doubt that Neil was murdered. Once they realize they have a mad man on the surface I suspect they’d order Collins to immediately abort and return to Earth without Buzz. There’s no sense in risking his life as well, and it’s too risky to try to restrain Buzz once he returned to the Command Module. Without the command module Buzz would have no way of leaving the moon. I don’t remember the name of it, but I read a SF short story where the Collins equivalent flies back without the LEM, annoyed that the other two will get the glory. I want to say it was either by Asimov, or in an anthology that he edited (I definitely remember a comment by the author/editor to the effect that Collins would never have done such a thing). ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/24 "2013-06-11T18:31:50Z")
> [@Frazzled](#): > > The astronauts were so wired up with medical gear that Houston should know beyond doubt that Neil was murdered. Once they realize they have a mad man on the surface I suspect they’d order Collins to immediately abort and return to Earth without Buzz. There’s no sense in risking his life as well, and it’s too risky to try to restrain Buzz once he returned to the Command Module. Without the command module Buzz would have no way of leaving the moon. Under any number of scenarios it might be difficult or impossible to know via telemetry alone that Armstrong had been murdered rather than (say) choked to death on food or died some other way. And there would be no way they would abandon an astronaut on the Moon without ironclad evidence that he had been responsible. The publicity and acrimony would have been far worse for deserting a man who might not have been guilty than if one astronaut had killed another. > [@](#): > > Questions about how much space travel affected his mental state would undoubtedly end the program. No way. The US had far too much invested, both financially and politically, in the Space Race. One fluke event, even one as horrific as the one proposed, wouldn’t have caused the US to pull the plug. It would be an admission of American inferiority in front of the Soviets. PS. By the way, back in 1978 or so I had breakfast with Michael Collins. Too bad I didn’t think to ask him this question.😉 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/25 "2013-06-11T18:59:08Z")
I agree it would’ve led to a major overhaul of the psych eval system for astronaut candidates, but the Apollo program had its own momentum by that time, socially, politically and budgetarily, and would have proceeded with perhaps a hiatus. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/26 "2013-06-11T19:15:46Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > You might not remember, but the Apollo 11 splashdown was [televised](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rl1k2WwX2sM). In addition to keeping the entire crew of the U.S.S. Hornet quiet, you’d also have a whole passel of reporters on board the ship that would have to be silenced. So, the whole coverup thing wouldn’t work very well. > > In fact, the only scenario I can possibly imagine is that shortly after lunar landing, there’s a sudden interruption in all communications and telemetry with the Eagle. When power comes back, Buzz would tell a shocked world that Armstrong had a heart attack, or catastrophic accident or something. Of course the problem with that is that NASA would immediately tell Aldrin to get the hell out of there and he’d never have a chance to open the door, much less walk on the moon. I like your scenario, it retains the element of doubt as to what happened that I intended but didn’t make clear in the OP, but being ordered to abort certainly wouldn’t stop Aldrin if he’d offed Armstrong, and again there is absolutely nothing Houston could really do to stop him. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’ll go along with the consensus that this is a virtually impossibility. Sure, but lets assume the multiverse theory is real, in 99.9999999% of all possible realities history played out as it did, but perhaps in one reality Armstrong turned to Aldrin and did an unfortunate Nelson Muntz “Hah! Hah!”, before trying to exit… 😉 > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Ah, apparently I had misread things, but with a kernel of truth as well. From [here](http://www.nbcnews.com/id/48790315/ns/technology_and_science-space/t/debunking-myths-about-neil-armstrong/#.Ubag5Ofql8E): That appears in Collins book as well though, he certainly seemed to think Armstrong had exercised his authority as Commander of the mission to bump Aldrin. > [@Folacin](#): > > I don’t remember the name of it, but I read a SF short story where the Collins equivalent flies back without the LEM, annoyed that the other two will get the glory. I think that’s even worse than my scenario! :eek: > [@Colibri](#): > > PS. By the way, back in 1978 or so I had breakfast with Michael Collins. Too bad I didn’t think to ask him this question.😉 Very cool, what _did_ you ask him? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/27 "2013-06-11T19:20:14Z")
The telemetry issue could be resolved. Recall that the Apollo 13 astronauts disconnected theirs in a bit of rebellion against the controllers. Maybe Buzz could have whispered to Neil “Say, wouldn’t it be a riot to disconnect our telemetry for a few minutes?” It would be rather doubtful that Neil would have gone along but if he did, that would be the time to strike. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/28 "2013-06-11T19:49:36Z")
There is no way that NASA would have gone along with a change in the order of debarking. Who are you going to put up as First Man On The Moon, a guy named ARMSTRONG!!!, or a guy named Buzz? _Please imagine trumpet fanfares and choirs of angels as you read the name ARMSTRONG. And maybe a “sad trombone” when you read the name Buzz._ ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/29 "2013-06-11T20:02:56Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > And there would be no way they would abandon an astronaut on the Moon without ironclad evidence that he had been responsible. The publicity and acrimony would have been far worse for deserting a man who might not have been guilty than if one astronaut had killed another. No way they’d leave him, that’s not SOP. “YOU GETCHER ASS BACK HERE RIGHT NOW GODDAMNIT!!!1!” is how it would play out. Aldrin would surrender to Collins- forewarned and unmurderable. They’d fly back, staying awake the whole time staring at each other. Who landed the thing during reentry- Armstrong would have, right? But all three would have trained to land the thing, just in case? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/30 "2013-06-11T20:18:21Z")
> [@Disposable Hero](#): > > Very cool, what _did_ you ask him? I’m afraid it was nothing more significant than “Pass the salt.” At the time Collins was on the board of the Smithsonian’s Air and Space Museum, and I was working at a Smithsonian research station in Panama. Collins came to visit the place and stayed overnight. I and a few other researchers were able to have breakfast in the station mess hall with him. We mostly talked about research at the site. I was very tempted to ask him how he felt about getting so close to the Moon without being able to set foot on it, but decided that wouldn’t be the best conversational gambit (and was probably sick of answering it). 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/31 "2013-06-11T21:00:13Z")
What do you mean _if_ Buzz Aldrin murdered Neil Armstrong? It happened. Just 43 years later. Slow burn, man. Slow burn. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/32 "2013-06-11T21:09:58Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > There is no way that NASA would have gone along with a change in the order of debarking. Who are you going to put up as First Man On The Moon, a guy named ARMSTRONG!!!, or a guy named Buzz? . . . Neil Armstrong! Neil Armstrong! Neil Armstrong! Neil Armstrong, AAAALLLLL American Boy! ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/33 "2013-06-11T21:11:57Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I’m afraid it was nothing more significant than “Pass the salt.” > > At the time Collins was on the board of the Smithsonian’s Air and Space Museum, and I was working at a Smithsonian research station in Panama. Collins came to visit the place and stayed overnight. I and a few other researchers were able to have breakfast in the station mess hall with him. We mostly talked about research at the site. > > I was very tempted to ask him how he felt about getting so close to the Moon without being able to set foot on it, but decided that wouldn’t be the best conversational gambit (and was probably sick of answering it). 🙂 Ah, still cool though, and its probably a good job you didn’t ask that, he didn’t strangle Armstrong, but he may have throttled _you_ 😉 > [@Enderw24](#): > > What do you mean _if_ Buzz Aldrin murdered Neil Armstrong? It happened. Just 43 years later. > Slow burn, man. Slow burn. For the love of god man there are probably conspiracy theorists reading this thread, don’t give them any ammunition! “Yeah man, Collins had Armstrong silenced!” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/34 "2013-06-11T21:19:36Z")
I believe it is that book where Collins had been promised a landing on another Apollo mission, and turned it down because being an astronaut was so tough on his family. I’d sell my family to walk on the moon. Armstrong wrote in his biography that he made out like a bandit with women because he could point to the moon and say, “See that? I’ve been there.” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/35 "2013-06-11T21:24:32Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I believe it is that book where Collins had been promised a landing on another Apollo mission, and turned it down because being an astronaut was so tough on his family. > I’d sell my family to walk on the moon. Yes, he states if he’d stayed in the Apollo mission planning schedule he would have most likely been Commander on Apollo 17, the last mission. I kind of understand why he made the choice given the amount of time and effort he’d already put into the space program and its undoubted dangers. A tough choice certainly, I don’t know what I would have done in his place. > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Armstrong wrote in his biography that he made out like a bandit with women because he could point to the moon and say, “See that? I’ve been there.” > > 🙂 I’m actually a little surprised to read that, I guess I didn’t have as clear an idea of Armstrongs character as I thought did, he just didn’t come across as a ‘sow your wild oats’ sort of man. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/36 "2013-06-11T21:34:18Z")
I’d say that they shouldn’t have let Barry Malzberg write the damn script. (I don’t remember the mentioned story, but Malzberg wrote tons about astronauts going nuts, most notably “Beyond Apollo.” ) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/37 "2013-06-11T22:19:51Z")
Aldrin pushed himself to the max to be number one at flying and at engineering, at everything. He had some problems being number two on the moon, or perhaps seeing there were no more worlds to conquer. He describes in his book waking up in a motel room with no idea how he got there, finding his car on the parking lot full of liquor bottles. By the way, one [does not fuck with that guy.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wptn5RE2I-k) ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/38 "2013-06-11T22:23:26Z")
[QUOTE=Disposable Hero] I’m currently reading, _‘Carrying The Fire’_, an autobiography by the third Apollo 11 crewmember, Michael Collins. _(please don’t give away the ending)_ 😉 Its an interesting read, though very much of its time, Collins does hint at a certain level of tension between the three men on the mission and that Buzz Aldrin was more than a little put out that he wouldn’t be the first man on the moon _(something that I’m sure he’d be the first to admit himself, and you can’t really blame him)_ [/QUOTE] Just an aside isn’t **Carrying the Fire** a great book, it is by far my favorite astronaut memoir. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/39 "2013-06-12T00:16:34Z")
> [@Icerigger](#): > > Just an aside isn’t **Carrying the Fire** a great book, it is by far my favorite astronaut memoir. Yes, its definitely a good read. It would be interesting if Collins could add a further chapter to update it _(I read the 1975 British edition)_. I also noticed that I have, ‘Magnificent Desolation’ by Buzz Aldrin and ‘Moondust: The Men Who Fell To Earth’ by Andrew Smith on the bookshelf beside me, are they worth a read? Thanks ---
**Author:** ![Frazzled](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frazzled/32/3368_2.png) [@Frazzled](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frazzled)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655/40 "2013-06-12T02:20:08Z")
[Quote: Colibri] No way. The US had far too much invested, both financially and politically, in the Space Race. One fluke event, even one as horrific as the one proposed, wouldn’t have caused the US to pull the plug. It would be an admission of American inferiority in front of the Soviets. [/Quote] I probably spoke a little too emphatically when I said they’d “undoubtedly cancel the program” but I still think it’s a possibility. “The Right Stuff” book and movie is about the early days of the space program and portrays John Glenn as a do gooder who was uncomfortable with his fellow astronauts enjoying some of the “perks” of their job. But in his book he explains that he really didn’t care what they did, it’s just that he was more politically savvy than the other astronauts and recognized that the program was coasting entirely on the good will of the public. Any scandal could jeopardize funding and end the program. The Apollo 1 fire resulted in a congressional hearing led by Walter Mondale. He considered NASA to be a dangerous waste of money and he was not alone in that view. A second disaster so close to the Apollo 1 disaster would have brought many of those questions right back to the forefront. It’s distinctly possible that NASA could fix the problem with better psychological screening but I don’t think that’s a guarantee. By the time of Apollo 1 the Russian program was already dead. Their moon rockets first stage had much smaller engines than the Saturn V and as a result they had to use several engines. The complexity was too much and a test launch resulted in an explosion on the pad. The CIA knew about this and had it come public the need to go to the moon would pale in comparison to the other social issues that needed that money as well. And as long as we’re talking about astronaut deaths let’s set a popular myth to rest. There’s no way Buzz could give Neil his “suicide pill” because no such pill has ever existed. Jim Lovell mentions in his book that the astronauts would not stop trying to get home until they actually died. But should things become hopeless and the only real option was to commit suicide then they would do so by depressurizing the cabin. No suicide pill necessary. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apollo-11-what-if/660655.md?page=3)