An Apology for Philosophy

This must certainly be a huge sticking point for scientists. Postulating something beyond the bounds of current understanding—well as the cliché goes, you sound like some spaced-out pothead spewing nonsense. Even the more rigorous philosophic notions seems to get criticized as such drivel.

It’s a shame really, because by now, it’s all too clear we live in a very strange universe and even the most current empirical scientific evidence sounds just as asinine if you were to try and explain it using any rhetorical form outside of mathematics. But we have the math, so that somehow makes all the difference?
ETA: Wonderful essay, BTW. Good to hear a scientists feelings on this particular subject.

Yes, it does. Most of the really profound concepts about the nature of the universe are derived from math, like Hawking’s eternal Euclidian space-time and “imaginary time”, black holes and neutron stars, or the idea that beyond the event horizon, time and the radial dimension of space may be reversed. This makes them qualitatively different from random speculation. It’s in fact precisely that attribute that makes cosmological work like that of Hawking science and not philosophy. It’s not so much the math per se as the fact that the math gives the work a theoretical grounding. Otherwise it’s intrinsically no better than two friends who know little about the subject shooting the breeze on their front porch about the nature of the universe.

I agree. Though I remain unpersuaded by the value of pure philosophy. I think Itself made a very astute point when he said that in cases where philosophy appears relevant, it’s a case of scientists engaging in philosophy and not philosophers contributing to science. My Dreyfus example was an illustration of a philosopher trying to contribute to science and doing a very poor job of it.

I think I agree with most of what you wrote, but I want to pick on this a little, since it’s tangentially related to a point I tried to make earlier. There may be, indeed, nothing one’s missing with not reading any philosophy, or getting too deep into maths, or climbing mountains, or any other area of human endeavour, really—quite simply, preciously little of what we do, we do out of necessity. We climb mountains ultimately because they’re there, just like we do most other things—some people get some enjoyment out of them. Personally, I don’t see the appeal of mountain climbing, but neither me nor any other flatlanders tend to rail against the practise because, e.g., it doesn’t produce anything useful. It’s something some people enjoy doing, and I’m fine with that, even though I don’t share the taste.

None of this means, however, that it’s not—for whatever reason—a worthwhile thing to do; but in the case of philosophy, that’s the usual conclusion (not saying it’s one you draw). People seem to find themselves forced to justify their disinterest, and typically do it by denying the thing they’re disinterested in any value, so that it’s only right to be disinterested. I’d like to advocate a stance of benevolent disinterest: there’s things that are not for me, but that doesn’t mean they’re not worth doing.

Krauss is one of my usual examples of scientists embarrassing themselves on philosophical topics; I just didn’t want to bloat my post even more with touching on this issue, too. But basically, regarding:

It has cleared up issues regarding ideas like cosmogenesis and creation from nothing that, if Lawrence Krauss had invested the time to study them, would have saved him the trouble of writing a book.

As for the issue of philosophers contributing to science, David Albert (mentioned by wolfpup) has written one of the best introductions to interpretive issues in Quantum Mechanics, Jeffrey Bub has done important work on clarifying the structure of QM (most notably with the Clifton-Bub-Halvorson theorem that tells us that quantum mechanics is characterized among C*-algebras by just assuming that you don’t have superluminal signalling, can’t copy information perfectly, and can’t do secure bit commitment, but also with the Clifton-Bub uniqueness theorem, and several other results), and others—but really, that’s completely besides the point, and I would label such contributions as mainly incidental.

It’s true that most such contributions come, as you said (and I did in my OP), from scientists ‘waxing philosophically’, but this just shows that philosophy should not be a dirty word in the sciences—as I showed, by the four examples I gave, such philosophical thinking can be a concrete engine of progress in science. So this:

Strikes me as somewhat odd, since I’ve given examples of just this in my OP. Also, I think your assertion of philosophy as ‘non-rigorous’ is debatable at best.

But the thing is, it’s not the philosopher’s intention to contribute to science—they’re philosophers, after all. Criticizing them for this (alleged) failure is a bit like criticizing an architect for their lack of contributions to carpetry—it’s exactly the category error I mention in my post. Philosophical inquiry into the nature of the world created the tools that we today label ‘science’, but is not exhausted by them. So when you say:

You’re missing that philosophers don’t (by and large) intend to play the same game. Perhaps the difference is that you seem to hold a certain philosophical stance, namely that all the sensible questions about the world can be answered objectively, as when you say:

You’re alleging that this sort of method suffices to get at all the knowledge we want to have about the universe. Most philosophers would probably disagree. First of all, of course, the position you’re asserting is a philosophical one, and not one that can be subject to repeatable, controlled experiments—that’s the sort of trap that contributed to the downfall of logical positivism: when your criterion of sensibility is that all knowledge must ultimately be empirical, it is self-refuting, since it is itself not empirical.

Anyway, you’re holding a philosophical position that ultimately everything we can say about the universe must be subject to empirical testing, in order to arrive at objectively supported positions. I disagree: I don’t think that questions like ‘how should I live my life?’ do have objective, much less empirical, answers. Nevertheless, it is a question that I think can be meaningfully discussed—certainly, there are better and worse ways to live. But what makes life better or worse is not itself fixed, but similarly subject to debate.

It’s much closer to the process in appreciating a work of art: the goal is not to find the artist’s intention; art is not a puzzle to be solved. Rather, the goal is to enter a dialogue, play with different meanings, consider different ways to interpret the piece of art, which then will change your appreciation, and so on. It’s not a race to the finish line, but a walk throught the woods with the intent of enjoying the scenery, if you’ll forgive my waxing poetic here.

Bell’s theorem is straightforward metaphysics, I’m not sure how one would dispute that; Zeh’s work was explicitly rejected for being ‘too philosophical’. The interpretation of quantum mechanics, which Deutsch (and Bell) were working on, is also a typical topic in the philosophy of science, and so too is the interpretation of relativity (though mostly today focusing on the more inclusive case of general relativity). Certainly, logical or mathematical means were used in these arguments (as they in fact often are in philosophy—most people would probably consider logic to be a sub-field of philosophy, in fact), but what they are about strike me as quintessentially philosophical topics. Certainly, a strict instrumentalist or empiricist account of science would have no use for any of these arguments.

Fine, but then you’d have to tell me how to tell who’s a scientist and who’s a philosopher. :stuck_out_tongue:

That’s probably what they said in the past, too…

Well, then don’t, it’s your call. I knew upfront that I would loose some potential readership by not trying to condense my thoughts into tweets; for myself, length isn’t a key factor in determining whether or not I’ll read something, but rather, whether I think the topic is interesting, and whether what I’m then reading continues to hold my interest.

Well, for one thing, philosophical inquiry is exactly what developed the tools of scientific inquiry; that these tools do well at their job is just a testament to the quality of philosophical thinking that went into creating them.

Maybe you’re not aware of this, but ‘shut up and calculate’ is basically a motto for those that advocate a ‘philosophy-free science’, or that advocate an instrumentalist approach. What I want to show with the examples I gave is that typically, it’s a bad one.

Taking another angle, what’s been the value added of philosophy as practiced by philosophers over the past 100 years? The question has 2 components: there are benefits but also costs. And the costs of a working philosopher are far lower than that of a natural scientist.

The American Philosophical Association has about 11,000 members worldwide of whom 9600 are in the US. In contrast Science magazine has a worldwide readership of one million. Ok, those aren’t exactly comparable figures. Still, they differ by two orders of magnitude. Philosophy is a pretty small industry.
On the plus side of the ledger we have Karl Popper, Thomas Kuhn and a number of AI researchers. (Also see the OP.) I find the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy of some interest.

Empirical Investigation: Random Sample
But what of the median Ivy League philosopher, as it were? Halfway down the Princeton list we have Desmond Hogan and Mark Johnston. Over at the University of Pennsylvania I see Charles Kahn and Errol Lloyd. What do these folks do?

Hm. Not sure how to proceed from here. I mean their work sounds interesting to me: collectively they study ethics, epistemology, ancient philosophy, history of political theory, causation, freedom, God and death. And like I said, I find the compilation at Stanford’s website diverting. I find it difficult to explain or measure the benefits of all this though. Well at least it’s cheap, relatively speaking.

Too much to respond to line-by-line before dinner, but:

I’m aware of that; my point is that they should play their own game elsewhere, separately. If you want to talk about issues of morals and ethics and theology, that’s great, but we were (or at least I was) talking about the contributions of philosophy to science. I have no objection to (though not much interest) in philosophy on its own merits. Science is a game with its own rules. No one is forcing philosophy to play that game, but it it does, it has to follow the same rules.

Yes, well, science is not art appreciation. That isn’t to say that there’s nothing worth appreciating in it— quite the opposite, in fact. Are you trying to argue for a more humanities-based, interpretation-rather-than-deduction version of science?

Mentioning undergrads distracted me, then; I’ve run into the “shut up and calculate” motto more as an exhortation to go where the math tells you to go, rather than rejecting mathematically valid solutions because they don’t match physical intuition. See antiparticles, for example, or even the labored attempts to explain spinors without mentioning anything about covering spaces or topology in general.

If you’re saying that this describes philosophy, I’m fine with that. If you’re saying that such an endeavor adds value to our lives, I agree. But it’s not science!

I said earlier that “…the logos is objective reality. Everything else is mythology and entertainment (like, for example, religion and poetry, respectively)”. I used the word “entertainment” slightly facetiously and with deliberate provocativeness because I was arguing with the other poster, but it’s essentially true: pure philosophy is more art than science, and art entertains us and fulfills us in intangible ways, but the knowledge that it gives us rarely escapes the domain of the purely metaphysical. Sometimes the sciences give us that metaphysical satisfaction, too, like discoveries about the nature of the cosmos or the reality of the Higgs boson, but the methods are entirely empirical.

Good question. I’m tempted to answer (per my comment below about the Aspect et al. paper) that you know you’re doing science when you’re into heavy-duty math by the time you get to the third sentence! :smiley: More seriously, there are certainly gray areas, but science tends to be characterized by empiricism and quantitative methods. I would argue that math itself is a legitimate science (and not a branch of philosophy) because it’s actually empirical within its own domain – a mathematical result is, generally speaking, either right or wrong, and you can write a paper about it and have someone either corroborate it or refute it. You can write a paper about a philosophical question and philosophers will debate it until the cows come home, much as I’ve debated philosophical matters on my front porch with old friends until the sun came up. Nothing was accomplished but we had a good time.

As you probably gathered from our previous conversation about quantum determinism, I know almost nothing about Bell’s Theorem, but the reference in what I gather to be an important paper on the subject – the Aspect et al. (1982) paper entitled “Experimental Realization of Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen-Bohm Gedankenexperiment: A New Violation of Bell’s Inequalities”, the reference to Gedankenexperiment seems to support your claim. But it’s interesting that this paper itself is, as the title implies, an empirical verification of that Gedankenexperiment, and is therefore indisputably science. (One can tell this by the fact that by the third sentence, it has launched into serious math! :D) Whereas the referenced thought experiment, and perhaps Bell’s original assertions, could be considered philosophy or to inhabit a gray area between philosophy and science. BUT… and this is important… it was always a case of scientists venturing into philosophy and not the other way around. They may not have developed their hypotheses using math, as in my previous examples of black holes and many of Hawking’s hypotheses, but they did develop them from a sound knowledge of the subject matter – scientists doing science. I think Itself made a very astute observation here. As in my example of the philosopher Hubert Dreyfus and the AI argument, he was outclassed by scientists who knew a lot more about AI than he did, and successfully battled him on his own philosophical turf.

Agreed. A post should be just as long as it needs to be, and no more or less. Yours was about the right length for the content. Mijin made two posts, and though they only contained a few sentences, they were too long by the same amount! :smiley:

Who would also be a good answer to the challenge raised by Itself, regarding what philosophy has contributed to science: Popper, in introducing falsifiability into modern science as a criterion for theory selection, basically made science the way we know it today (although personally, I think it’s gotten a bit too much of a mantra in recent years, but then again, that just underlines my general point: philosophy needs ongoing discussion, or it becomes stale).

How would such a test pan out for, say, physicists or mathematicians? Or for other academics?

There’s this feeling that I get from your post that at every other corner, there’s a philosopher meddling with the affairs of serious scientists. Personally, it’s not something I’ve ever really come across. Could you maybe give some examples?

To be sure, there’s plenty of cases of philosophers getting the science wrong; and likewise, there’s cases of scientists getting the philosophy wrong. That’s at least in part why I would want a more open, less stay-off-my-turf exchange between the two disciplines, starting with the realization that both are valuable areas of human enquiry. I think science is hurting itself by discuraging philosophical approaches—as my examples show, they can be of great use to science, even evaluated by most scientists’ standards (as an example, there was a recent theorem on the ontology of the wavefunction that is, in its form, exactly equivalent to Bell’s; and the same people that praise Bell’s theorem, even today working out its implications, have been panning it for being ‘just philosophy’).

Well, that was my point—to show that philosophy differs from science, and hence, can’t be replaced by it. I shouldn’t overstretch the art appreciation metaphor, by the way: it could too easily be taken to imply a kind of relativism regarding philosophy, in the sense of ‘anything goes’. I don’t believe that to be the case at all (but I don’t really believe it in the case of art appreciation, either, but again that’s another thread). Instead, I think we can come to valuable insights using philosophical reasoning, even if those are not amenable to empirical testing.

No, not at all, and I don’t see where you got this from.

The original source of the phrase is David Mermin, who used it to caricaturize a prevailing instrumentalist bent in the approach to quantum mechanics—the idea that you should treat the theory essentially as a black box, and all that the scientists concern themselves with doing is finding recipes to twiddle the knobs and push the buttons in order to find interesting things the box can do, without considering what goes on inside the box.

And since that’s also what I said, I take it we agree.

Well, here I would tend to disagree. We don’t (just) philosophize for the intellectual or aesthetic pleasure it brings, but rather, to learn things about ourselves and the world we live in, like how to act morally, how to create a just society, how to raise our children, in short (perhaps too short), how to live well. None of these question I see being decided by an experiment in a lab anytime soon.

I know you’re being facetious, but of course there’s plenty of good science without a single line of math. Contrariwise, there’s plenty of math-heavy philosophy.

What I have a problem with here is the insinuation that just because debate continues, nothing has been accomplished. Debate continues about the best form of government; still, people feel the institution of widespread democracy is a distinct advance over earlier times.

Aspect et al.'s papers are about Bell’s theorem in the sense of finding out whether it applies to nature, which is indeed a wholly scientific endeavour (as I outlined in my OP). The thing is, the core conclusion from Bell’s theorem is that the predictions of quantum mechanics are incompatible with a certain ontology that was believed to hold in classical mechanics—that of ‘local realism’. Apect et al.'s paper are important steps in checking, essentially, the predictions of quantum mechanics, but those experiments could have been carried out without joining their results to ontological, i.e. metaphysical, implications—that’s the work Bell’s theorem does.

Yes, and it’s exactly the fruitfulness of this that makes me lament the anti-philosophical stance in today’s science, because it inhibits just this sort of venture.

This is no more true of philosophy than it is of science. Scientists rely on analogies all the time too. If there is there is anything that can rightly be called the philosophic method it is the careful, detailed logical analysis of arguments, including the uncovering of implicit assumptions.

This is a very odd example to choose support your argument; Tycho Brahe was much more of a scientist than a philosopher. He spent his career in careful, painstaking measurement. His work is all about empirical data and mathematical analysis, and the Copernican Revolution that inaugurated modern science could not have happened without him. You will not find his name mentioned in histories of philosophy (at least not more than passingly, and never as an actual philosopher), nor have I ever heard of his work being studied by any present-day philosopher, but he will figure prominently in any history of science with even the remotest pretensions to completeness. Inasmuch as it makes sense to demarcate science from philosophy in the 17th century, Tycho, more than almost anyone (far more than Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, Newton…) falls firmly on the science side of the line.

Perhaps you will say “Ah, well, but clearly, even if much of what he did was science, what he is doing in the passage I quoted is philosophy rather than science,” but all you are doing there (if that is truly your response) is retrospectively assigning the stuff you think is wrong or nonsensical to the category of philosophy and the stuff he said or did that you think is right, or at least useful or sensible, to the category of science. Of course “philosophy” is going to look bad and “science” is going to look good if you allow yourself to categorize claims and theories on that sort of basis. (Of course, that sort of criterion is used a lot in practice: essentially, those thinkers of the past whose work we think made a positive contribution to the development of what we now think is science, we call scientists, and those whose work now seems either wrong or irrelevant to modern science, we call philosophers. Back in their own time they were all called philosophers, and were proud to be.)

I do not think that there is any doubt that (if human civilization survives, and science continues to advance) much of what is considered good scientific theory today will sound as nonsensical to people a few centuries in the future as Tycho’s claims about the sevenfoldness of planets, organs, and metals do to us today. I am also confident that much of the continuing advancement of science will depend (as it always has) not only on the patient gathering of more data, and the experimental testing of hypotheses, but, at least as much, on the uncovering of subtle logical flaws and implicit but false assumptions in theoretical reasoning, i.e., on “philosophical” thinking. Whether the people who do this get called “scientists” or “philosophers” will depend on two things, whether posterity thinks they “got it right” or not, and on which department of the university happens to provide their salary. Neither criterion is very meaningful or marks any important intellectual distinction.

I can’t say much about physics, where I am a complete layman, but I am very familiar, at a professional level, with one area of modern science, cognitive science (including cognitive neuroscience and “consciousness studies”) where philosophers (in the sense of people employed by philosophy departments) and scientists (people with labs, who do experiments) interact extensively and fruitfully. I would venture to say that not only have philosophy and philosophers already contributed greatly to advances in these areas, but that there remains enormous potential for them to contribute further. Theory, in these fields, is still rife with questionable analogies and hidden, implicit, but dubious assumptions, sometimes at very fundamental levels, and these originate far more often from the scientists (of course, there are a lot more scientists) than from the philosophers, whose job is, or should be, to unmask them. If anything, one of the main problems I see in the field is that, due the due to the high prestige of science in the popular imagination, and the relatively low prestige of philosophy today, the philosophers are often too diffident, assuming far too often that if a scientist confidently asserts some theoretical position it must be right, and failing to look hard enough for the dubious analogies and hidden assumptions behind the claim.

Whereas science is quick, simple, and easy, huh, and any layman with two brain-cells to rub together can make a useful contribution to the discussion of scientific issues? :rolleyes:

All your comment shows it that you do not have the intellectual stamina to engage with either philosophy or science, and thus have nothing to contribute to a discussion of the relationship between them.

As I was hoping was the case, njtt confirms: Philosophy is a necessary part of bleeding edge science. When the ancient Greeks and Indians first argued about the nature of matter and proposed the atom, it was a philosophical question that wasn’t resolved until Dalton came through in the 1800s.

This extends to almost every branch of science we have. Look at the Copenhagen Interpretation for QM for yet another example. It could be argued that the interpretation is not what matters, only that our models provide answers based on the evidence. Yet all interpretations, I’d argue, are largely philosophical and can lead to new insights into physics when leads have gone cold and the field stagnates. So it is with more fundamental and novel philosophy.

Perhaps philosophy argues the right questions and science argues the right answers. Each informing the other to make progress.

Apology: Not accepted.
Thanks for the nap.:rolleyes:

But some of the ancients proposed the atom, and some did not, and if you read the arguments the arguments for the atom were really no better than the arguments against. The question of what makes up matter is a simple one even if the answer is far from simple.

The atom is just one example of how natural philosophy did not converge on answers for about 2,000 years (or it converged on wrong answers.)
Dreyfus is a good example of philosophy failing at saying what science will find or won’t find.
More useful is when it gives us pointers on how we think about problems. Whether or not Popper is right about the crucial nature of falsifiability, it is a good discussion to have and might even be helpful to some.

There’s way too much in this thread to respond to but this point seems to be a core of your claim, so I want to ask more about it.

My layman’s reading of popular science indicates to me that the most basic issues of cosmology have *not *been cleared up; in fact they are more highly disputed in more ways than ever before. Any clearing up of them, moreover, will stem from deeper mathematics that will more precisely state how and why these issues emerge.

For most people, this would appear to be the opposite of philosophy. Philosophers would seem to have nothing to say about it before hand. Perhaps some scientists “waxing philosophically” might, but that again is the point: only the tiniest handful of scientists are capable of understanding the math in the first place. Are there any philosophers qua philosophers in the world who do?

I remember a few decades back when philosophers were writing papers about the meaning of time travel, which were demolished by scientists who showed that mathematically they didn’t have a clue as to the actual physics they were purportedly using. How is that different from today?

It’s possible that assigning breakthroughs in advanced scientific understanding to philosophers is the worst possible claim you can make. Or maybe not. I haven’t a clue about the Clifton-Bub uniqueness theorem or who said what about it. You might make a valid claim based upon it, but you certainly haven’t done so as yet.

Worse, such a claim appears to invalidate all previous philosophy since it manifestly had nothing to say about any advanced science since the dawn of the quantum and probably far before. Philosophy is far wider and deeper than the tiny few who are dabbling in advanced quantum mechanics. Can anything you say be extended to the huge bulk of the profession and what their current intellectual achievements are?

You seem to be trying to cast this into a form of circular reasoning, or some other rhetorical error. But you don’t exactly specify where the problem is here.

I do hold that, in his analogy of the planets and the metals, Tycho was engaging in philosophical reasoning, not scientific. His idea is not testable nor falsifiable, and it involves analogical reasoning that is beyond testing.

At other times, he engaged in more scientific procedures, making pure observations and collecting data.

Newton, too, practiced both science and non-science (astrology.) It isn’t circular reasoning for me to say that his science was pretty scientific, but his astrology was not. That’s pretty much how the terms have fallen out in the centuries since. We can test Newton’s laws of motion. (They got us to the Moon.) All tests of astrology have failed miserably.

(Astrology is, bless it’s little buttons, falsifiable. It’s also massively falsified.)

Philosophy, as a process of examining ideas critically and trying to probe for weaknesses, is perfectly valid. In this, it very closely resembles its early offshoot, Logic.

It even has validity as a generator of some new ideas, usually by compiling ideas together, stacking A on top of B and seeing if it topples. It just doesn’t do it by observing factual data. Philosophy proceeds a priori. Things are declared true or false on the basis of linguistic reasoning, a process more rhetorical than anything else.

Hell, I’m engaging in it right now! :wink:

Not so fast, I would say.

The question (questions, really) “what makes up matter?” has been deceptively simple. And just as the arguments for or against the atom did not converge into something useful for science to suss out for well over 2,000 years, science and mathematics finds answers in the same trial and error fashion as well. There’ll be good philosophy and bad, just as there’ll be good science and bad. And yes, I understand science has a way to test against the bad science, but science is about finding answers, philosophy is not. Again, I stress philosophy not be about finding answers, but arguing out the questions and let answers come however they may—if ever.

Philosophy should probably be looked upon as a qualitative practice, as its quantity is no indication of its usefulness, but useful is exactly what it can be. Disregarding it is to ignore the subtleties of all scientific history and human thought that has brought us this far.

Indeed, how can science get to the bottom of “What is self-awareness?” without the help of philosophy on cognition and its nature? The questions might seem simple, but there’s much discourse to be had on that question with both philosophers and scientists until an answer can be found.

Converging on a solution often does not involve going directly to it. Look at genetic algorithms. I’d hardly dispute that there is lots of trial and error.
And I’m not talking about bad science, I’m talking about incorrect science - which might seem perfectly correct given the knowledge available.

Some philosophy begins with facts also. Arguments about the rights of animals is dependent in some part on scientific studies about the intelligence of animals and whether animals feel pain, for example. Translating scientific findings into the moral realm is another good use of philosophy.

MIT has a quite good philosophy department. When I took course there, I never felt any flack from my fellow engineers and scientists. And my Theory of Knowledge professor had a PDP-8 manual on the bookcase in his office.

I don’t know anything at all about the rest of your examples; they were not covered in my Quantum Mechanics class. I will argue that Bell’s theorem is physics, not metaphysics. First of all, John Bell was trained as a physicist, not a philosopher. Second of all, Bell’s theorem made specific predictions that could be tested by experiment; it was, in fact, falsifiable.

On your larger point, I think that it is obviously true that science as a field of study arose out of philosophy. If we apply the principles of cladistics to the question, we conclude that all scientists *are *philosophers. Of course, Aristotle would caution us that that allows the possibility that some philosophers are not scientists, and empirically we find this is true. Empirically, since about the start of the 20th century, we find that the non-scientist philosophers have not contributed significantly to the progress of science; however, Aristotle would again point out that this is true by definition–any philosopher who contributes to science is a scientist.

Thus, by applying both philosophy and science to the question, we can come to a conclusion that satisfies (me). Quod erat demonstrandum.

I would accept your apology, but it’s the other philosophers, the ones I’ve tried to read, who should apologize. However, you made a good start on having something to be sorry for when you wrote a post so long it needed CHAPTERS.
Oh, you meant that OTHER definition of apology? No problem. Those guys usually write long, incoherent stuff that they should apologize for. :wink:

Hell, I would’ve titled it “An Appeal for Philosophy.” :wink: