# An apology to the USA **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 12, 2003, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557 "2003-02-12T13:31:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/21 "2003-02-12T14:55:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zebra \* > \*\*Didn’t the US of A kind of sit on it ass while Germany built up a huge ass army and raped France and most of rest of Europe? Didn’t we wait till a huge ‘suprise’ attack on our own people to join the world wars? > > . \*\* Pretty much, yeah. ---
**Author:** ![Squirebob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Squirebob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squirebob)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/22 "2003-02-12T14:55:49Z")
I am far from Racist or Xenophobic my post was about France and Germany’s destruction of the principles that have held NATO together. Without a stable NATO smaller less stabel alliences will spring up around the world and how in the hell would that be good for anyone? It didn’t sit on its ass, America helped the Allies in ways other that direct military support. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/23 "2003-02-12T14:56:05Z")
Give him time Kal, he’s just warning up. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/24 "2003-02-12T15:06:37Z")
**Squirebob** , about six posts in, **jjimm** asked you a question. How about answering ? ---
**Author:** ![Squirebob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Squirebob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squirebob)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/25 "2003-02-12T15:11:36Z")
As i have said my post was about Turkey’s appeal for help not starting a war! It was an appeal for help wich was vetoed by France and Germany. Thus making me a tad annoyed. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/26 "2003-02-12T15:16:54Z")
If Turkey is actually threatened, there could be French, German Belgian, Russian, British, Italian troops there in a matter of hours. When push comes to shove, Nato will be unified. The difference is wether there is need to build up in Turkey yet. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/27 "2003-02-12T15:20:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Neurotik \* > **As for the Turkey and NATO question, France and Germany are correct. If Turkey is going to support a US-led invasion of Iraq through use of airspace, etc., they don’t get to call in allies who were opposed to the action in the first place because they were suddenly attacked. Sorry, but it just doesn’t work that way and I’m glad that little maneuver was vetoed.** **Neurotik** , **Digenes** , et al, you people just don’t get it. They are torpedoing NATO. If they are going to be members of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, they have to follow the treaty. From NATO’s charter (bolding of relevant parts mine): > [@](#): > > Article 5 > **The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.** > Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security . > > Article 6 (1) > For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack: > [ul]_ **on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America** > on the Algerian Departments of France_ > \*on the territory of or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer; > \ ***on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories** or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.[/ul] According to article 6, if the Iraqi forces lob a few SCUDS at Kurdish refugees fleeing across the Turkish border, or even just shoot a SAM at a Turkish Jet covering those refugees, it is an attack against Turkey itself. According to article 5, an attack against Turkey is an attack against Germany, France, and Belgium. You think German forces would do nothing if someone lobed a SCUD across _their_ border? Asking for a few patriot missile batteries is only prudent on the part of Turkey, _regardless_ of whether or not they support American action in Iraq. Even if Turkey doesn’t offer assistance to the US, they are still a member of NATO, and they are still going to have to deal with thousands of Kurdish refugees. Do you understand this? Even if Turkey condemned the use of force, they would still need those defensive units. Their politics or support of the US invasion are not relevant. France, Germany, and Belgium are violating the intent of the NATO charter (though not the letter as nothing as no shots have been fired as of yet) by trying to block the deployment of defensive forces in Turkey. They are torpedoing the charter for political reasons and to hell with mutual defense. If a member can pick and choose when to support NATO based on its _individual_ interests, what’s the point of NATO at all? To summarize: According to the NATO charter, France, Germany, and Belgium have a duty to support the defense of Turkish territory _regardless_ of the Turkish position on Iraq. **Diogenes** , really. It’s 2003. I’m not a big fan of dubya either, and think he’s too hawkish, but isn’t the “unelected” schtick getting a bit old? ---
**Author:** ![Witch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/258eb7/32.png) [@Witch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Witch)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/28 "2003-02-12T15:21:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Squirebob \* > \*\*I really must share this opinion of my compatriots ( I’m British) in Europe. > > I feel sickened and ashamed to the pit of my stomach by how shorrt memories have become. In thier cowardly move to veto the defence of Turkey. France Germany and Belgium have stabbed the USA in the back. Can the french Goverment not see the war graves from the first and second world war where thousands of young American service men died to free France? > > NATO has secured peace in western Europe for the past half century, the USA beeing the driving force in both man-power and finance. What is the point of paying for an alience that will not help a fellow member defend itself, Turkey only wanted patriot missile batteries and defencive units. > > I would never wish disaster on any country but will France and Germany ask for help if they recieve terrorist attacks? \*\* Thank you. I have so much more I’d like to say about the family members we lost in France during both World Wars…but I wont. I know the kind of reaction it would get and I’ll spare myself the heartache. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/29 "2003-02-12T15:24:19Z")
To be fair, I should point out that France, Germany, and Belgium are only trying to delay the deployment of NATO forces in Turkey rather than trying to outright refuse them. However, they are still infringing on the intent of the NATO charter (again, the intent - though not quite the letter) in order to make a political point. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/30 "2003-02-12T15:24:20Z")
I’m only piping up to say that **Diogenes** and his incorrect statements about an ‘unelected’ President are certainly **not** on behalf of this American. You don’t speak on behalf of Americans or of the United States, **Diogenes**. Remember when you’re hammering away at your keyboard that the only person you speak for is yourself. And thank you, **Squirebob**. I don’t mind at all being disliked or having other citizens and governments of other countries disagree with me, but when I’m told things like what one Belgian person said to me (‘In America, if they find out you’re gay while you’re in the military, you get executed.’), I am sickened. America is supposedly so intolerant, but America is hated based on lies like those? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/31 "2003-02-12T15:30:09Z")
> [@](#): > > _catsix_ > I’m only piping up to say that Diogenes and his incorrect statements about an ‘unelected’ President are certainly not on behalf of this American.You don’t speak on behalf of Americans or of the United States, Diogenes. Remember when you’re hammering away at your keyboard that the only person you speak for is yourself. I speak on behalf of the _majority_ who voted for _Gore_! ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/32 "2003-02-12T15:38:09Z")
As I said before, **Diogenes**. That schtick is getting _old_. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/33 "2003-02-12T15:39:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Squirebob \* > \*\*As i have said my post was about Turkey’s appeal for help not starting a war! It was an appeal for help wich was vetoed by France and Germany. Thus making me a tad annoyed. \*\* Nonetheless, you made certain statements that I questioned. Please answer. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/34 "2003-02-12T15:48:22Z")
The problem here is that the US via Turkey are – again – pushing this war logic they so want everyone to embrace. In effect, the US argue; If you accept the deployment then you are implicitly accepting the _logic_ of war – that it is a likely consequence and that you must prepare. To France, Germany, Belgium and Russia, the UN have in place a legal framework that does not necessitate war, in fact it is designed to avoid a war. Thus preparing for a war is not merely premature but logically irrational. The US position is that war is inevitable. They’re entitled to their view but – in the context of the UN – they ain’t in charge. Nor, in the view of those countries mentioned, is the US position (re deployment) rational or sensible. Fwiw, it reminds me of the woman who wants another baby: “Why don’t we paint the small bedroom blue, just in case…” “But what’s the point, we haven’t decided to have another baby yet” “Well, you know. Just in case” etc, etc …. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/35 "2003-02-12T15:48:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beeblebrox \* > \*\* However, they are still infringing on the intent of the NATO charter (again, the intent - though not quite the letter) in order to make a political point. \*\* The intent doesn’t matter, only the letter, and if you believe otherwise, you are a fool. If they are not infringing on the letter, then they are acting within their rights and Turkey has no right to cry of backstabbing. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/36 "2003-02-12T15:52:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > \*\*If Turkey is actually threatened, there could be French, German Belgian, Russian, British, Italian troops there in a matter of hours. When push comes to shove, Nato will be unified. The difference is wether there is need to build up in Turkey yet. \*\* True - [as most of the serious political observers have noted:](http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/02/12/sprj.irq.nato.solana/index.html) > [@](#): > > At this point in time there are two or three countries that think it’s not necessary to start the contingency planning at this moment," Solana said at a Seoul news conference, "because … there’s no risk vis-à-vis any of the countries of NATO. > “But … I can guarantee you that if Turkey needs help, the help will be given by all the members of the NATO alliance,” the former NATO secretary-general said. This is just politics. It’s a group of countries worried about being steamrollered into a war they’re not convinced about, trying to make a point. But hell, why bother trying to answer the valid concerns of our long term allies when we can just engage in bluster and jingoism. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/37 "2003-02-12T16:02:24Z")
A lot of Irish people were in the British Army in WWII including my Grandfather. Does the British Gov./people owe Ireland because of this sacrifice? They certainly haven’t acted like they do in the past. **Witch** with all due respect why don’t you talk about them in Coldfires thread “We shall remember” As I’ve said before Apples and Oranges. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/38 "2003-02-12T16:05:27Z")
**Diogenes** , by postponing the decision they are weaseling out of the unspoken NATO obligations to a members _contingency_ planning. If you don’t think that contingency planning, though it is not expressely provided for in the charter, is an important part of NATO then I don’t know what the fuck to say to you. I wonder if France would still postpone the deployment decision if _they_ shared a border with Iraq and had to start planning what to do with Kurdish refugees should war break out. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/39 "2003-02-12T16:05:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Neurotik \* > \*\*In the larger world, while I disagree with France and Germany’s hard stance against the Iraq war, I certainly do not begrudge them the ability to determine and act on what they perceive to be their own national interests. And as much dislike as I have for the French government, I believe that if push really came to shove, France would stand side by side with the US and fight it out, but an admittedly borderline case like Iraq, I’m not too offended. Again, I disagree with their stance and I think it’s short-sighted (but this thread is not the place to get into that) but I’m not offended nor do I think they have some sort of obligation in this case to support US actions. \*\* As the granddaughter of a WWII vet who served in France and the Rhineland, I agree with this and think it was well said. We shouldn’t expect reflexive support. Neither should we have our concerns dismissed and ridiculed. I hope we reach a happy medium. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/40 "2003-02-12T16:08:05Z")
Whoops, my previous post should be directed toward **Neurotik** , rather than **Diogenes**. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557.md?page=3)