# An apology to the USA **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 12, 2003, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557 "2003-02-12T13:31:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/61 "2003-02-12T19:41:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Witch \* > Don’t tell what and where I can post **yojimbo** because you don’t like what I have to say. > > But thanks for letting me know that thread exists. Oh for fuck sake. You can post anywhere you want to. You know that and I know that. I was pointing out that there’s a thread called [May 5, 1945 - we shall remember.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23572&highlight=Remember) and it was probably a better place than a Pit Thread to talk about relations who dies in WWII and how you feel about it. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/62 "2003-02-12T19:42:37Z")
Oh and the whole apples and oranges thing. I hungry now. ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/63 "2003-02-12T20:03:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beeblebrox \* > \*\*In support of my earlier comments to **Neurotik** : because of the veto, Turkey officially invoked article 4 late and has called an emergency meeting of NATO members. > They are the first NATO member _ever_ to do this. They are the first member to ever have to. France, Germany, and Belgium have turned their backs on Turkey for political reasons rather than reasons of mutual defense. They are weasels. \*\* Absolutely correct. This isn’t about the U.S., this is about slapping Turkey in the face – something the EU has turned into an art form. When a member country invokes Article 4, there is _ **no** _ option. Regardless of politics, you rally round and provide the reassurance and support necessary. There is no question that Turkey feels threatened. There is also no question that Turkey is correct to feel that there is a significant risk of an attack on its territory by SCUD-equivalents with chemical or biological warheads. Yet, rather than stand with Turkey against this very real threat, France, Germany and Belguim offer this, > [@](#): > > \*\*But the NATO dissidents, all of whom have urged more time for United Nations inspections, continue to maintain that to begin military planning would “send the wrong signal” even before the inspectors delivered their scheduled report to the United Nations on Friday. > > “We assume that there is still space for diplomacy and we should use this space, and we don’t see any reason NATO should enforce a policy not in line with what we are trying to achieve,” Benoît D’Aboville, the French ambassador to NATO, said after the dispute had become public. \*\* So there it is: France & Co. want to “send a signal” by potentially putting Turkish lives at risk. Beautiful. The Turks must just love this. Do you think the Turks wonder if maybe, just maybe, the French wouldn’t be quite so cavalier if those SCUDs could reach Paris? This isn’t about “kowtowing” to the Americans because of WWII. It’s about backing up a faithful ally – Turkey. The Turks have every right to be disgusted at French, German and Belgian perfidy. They say that what goes around, comes around. Someday, Europe will need Turkey’s support very badly. If it’s not forthcoming Europe has no one to blame but themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/64 "2003-02-12T20:33:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Spiny Norman \* > \*\*Oh, and Squirebob - IMHO, one of the finest way to honour the sacrifice of Allied servicemen in WWII is trying to prevent that the lives of other brave and honourable people are pissed away in needless wars. \*\* And that, ladies and gentlemen, is all the response the OP of this thread really deserves. Class act as always, **Spiny**. While I don’t fully agree with the stance Germany, France, and Belgium are taking right now (I feel they are playing a game of hardball using their NATO membership to further a cause better served by UN and EU diplomacy), they are NOT dishonouring their NATO responsibilities. They’re merely saying “reinforcing Turkey’s defense systems is a step towards war, and we’re not ready to make it”. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Clint in Wichita_ > **Luckily for us, we don’t need the support of second-rate countries like France and Germany. The USA is capable of defending itself against any country on Earth, with or without the UN.** Argghhh. What an insult to all thinking people out there who had to read those lines. First of all, we’re not talking about a defensive action here. Unless Sadam Hussein’s invasion of Kuweit a decade ago qualifies as well, of course. :rolleyes: Secondly, your country’s military and intelligence budgets would be better spent on the thing it has proven not so capable of defending itself from: terrorism. No, I know the potential war on Iraq is not just about oil. But for God’s sake, don’t stick your head in the sand and swallow the propaganda that it’s just about overthrowing a Big Bully and liberating those poor Iraqis, either. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/65 "2003-02-12T20:42:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Truth Seeker \* > **This isn’t about the U.S., this is about slapping Turkey in the face – something the EU has turned into an art form.** Why? Because the EU advised Turkey that there are a lot of human rights issues to be worked out before their application for membership can be taken seriously? Because EU nations have used diplomatic pressure to get their citizens out of appaling conditions in Turkish jails? I’d like to see some examples of the EU “slapping Turkey in the face”, please. > [@](#): > > **When a member country invokes Article 4, there is _no_ option. Regardless of politics, you rally round and provide the reassurance and support necessary. There is no question that Turkey feels threatened. There is also no question that Turkey is correct to feel that there is a significant risk of an attack on its territory by SCUD-equivalents with chemical or biological warheads.** There is also no question that Turkey is not under attack as of yet, and there is also no question that European NATO support can be flown into Turkey in a matter of hours. > [@](#): > > \*\*So there it is: France & Co. want to “send a signal” by potentially putting Turkish lives at risk. \*\* Nonsense. If Turkey comes under attack, NATO _will_ unite and back them up. Period. You are misrepresenting the facts here. > [@](#): > > \*\*This isn’t about “kowtowing” to the Americans because of WWII. It’s about backing up a faithful ally – Turkey. The Turks have every right to be disgusted at French, German and Belgian perfidy. They say that what goes around, comes around. Someday, Europe will need Turkey’s support very badly. If it’s not forthcoming Europe has no one to blame but themselves. \*\* So, are the Turks going to lend support when the Netherlands are attacked, but not when the same thing happens to Germany? Despite NATO ties? Of course not. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/66 "2003-02-12T21:03:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > \*\*There is also no question that Turkey is not under attack as of yet, and there is also no question that European NATO support can be flown into Turkey in a matter of hours. \*\* “A matter of hours” doesn’t help a whole lot if the attack is a SCUD missile over Ankara, does it? AWACS and Patriot missiles, if in place beforehand, would. Again, NATO has always provided defense against contingencies, but France, Germany, and Belgium are blocking the deployment of those defensive measures. Though they are within the letter of the treaty, their actions have hurt NATO’s credibility and forced Turkey to take an unprecedented step in invoking article 4. France, Germany, and Belgium are weasels. What should NATO do if the US plans to invade Iraq with the backing of the UN? Send missile defense systems to Turkey. What should NATO do if the plans to invade Iraq with Turkish help, but _without_ the backing of the UN? Send missile defense systems to Turkey. What should NATO do if the US is planning to invade Iraq unilaterally, without Turkish support? Send missile defense systems to Turkey. What should NATO do if the US plans to just keep rattling the saber at Hussein? Send missile defense systems to Turkey. ---
**Author:** ![Tygr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/df788c/32.png) [@Tygr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tygr)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/67 "2003-02-12T21:16:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > **There is also no question that Turkey is not under attack as of yet…If Turkey comes under attack, NATO _will_ unite and back them up…** Right. “We won’t help put defenses in place _before_ your aggressive neighbor attacks you, but don’t worry, we’ll be right there to pick you up after they do.” Goddam shame when treaty responsibilities (not to mention Peace Prizes) are doled out based on a political agenda… ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/68 "2003-02-12T22:11:48Z")
Oh, come _on_. I’ve already stated that I do think the three contries in question are being somewhat dishonest in using their NATO status in a primarily UN-debate. I merely add that I don’t think Germany, France, and Belgium will back away from their NATO duties when push comes to shove. Your scenarios call for a first move by Sadam. When and if the US (by itself or in a UN mission) attacks Iraq, Turkey WILL have their NATO backing. Before that, I think a scenario of Iraqi missiles hitting Turkish soil before American bombers fly over Iraq is highly, _highly_ improbable. Sadam is playing a dirty game, but he’s not stupid enough to make the first agressive move, especially not against a relative outsider like Turkey. He knows he’d get bombed to oblivion if he did, and his reign would be over for sure. Also, bear in mind Turkey and Iraq both have a Kurd minority in their midst, and both countries have less than favourable track records with regards to those minorities. While Turkey never stooped to the level of Sadam (indeed, Turkey probably suffered a lot more than Iraq from what is considered Kurdish terrorism by some), it’s not unfair to say the two countries share enough common ground to make an attack on cities like Ankara unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2003, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/69 "2003-02-13T00:05:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > \*\*Why? Because the EU advised Turkey that there are a lot of human rights issues to be worked out before their application for membership can be taken seriously? Because EU nations have used diplomatic pressure to get their citizens out of appaling conditions in Turkish jails? I’d like to see some examples of the EU “slapping Turkey in the face”, please. \*\* **Coldfire** , Just _three months_ ago, Valéry Giscard d’Estaing said Turkey should **never** be allowed to join the EU because Turkey has “a different culture, a different approach, a different way of life”. . . . “Its capital is not in Europe, 95 per cent of its population live outside Europe. It is not a European country.” Giscard d’Estaing words do carry a bit of weight since he’s currenty heading up the effort to draft an EU constitution. But you’re right, this wasn’t a slap in the face, it was more like a kick in the face. > [@](#): > > \*\*Nonsense. If Turkey comes under attack, NATO _will_ unite and back them up. Period. \*\* I have doubts about this and I bet the Turks have doubts about this, too. > [@](#): > > \*\*You are misrepresenting the facts here. \*\* You’ve crossed a line, here **Coldfire**. I’m not misrepresenting anything. I supplied you with a quote from the current front page article from the NY Times. > **[THREATS AND RESPONSES: EUROPE; NATO Talks Fail to Mend Rift Over Iraq and...](https://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/12/world/threats-responses-europe-nato-talks-fail-mend-rift-over-iraq-defense-turkey.html)** > > NATO members meeting in Brussels fail to mend rift over refusal by France, Germany and Belgium to agree to military contingency planning to protect Turkey in case of war in Iraq (S) The Turks want to beef up their air defenses against surface-to-surface missiles. NATO may be quick, but I doubt seriously they could deploy in the eight minutes or so they’d have after a SCUD launch. I’m sure you are familiar with the concept of horses and barn doors. > [@](#): > > \*\*So, are the Turks going to lend support when the Netherlands are attacked, but not when the same thing happens to Germany? Despite NATO ties? Of course not. \*\* Wow! Talk about taking things for granted! Let me put it like this. If French and German foot-dragging results in Turkish deaths, especially the high number of deaths that would result from a biological attack, there will be a backlash in Turkey that you can’t imagine. The really ironic thing, is that this would probably also provoke a serious backlash on the general Arab street, as well, even though they are opposed to an attack on Iraq. “See, you can’t trust the West. They hate Muslims! It’s bad enough to go after Muslim “enemies”, but they won’t even take care of Muslims who are supposed to be their friends.” > [@](#): > > \*\*Your scenarios call for a first move by Sadam. \*\* Poppycock. SH has worked out exactly what he will do in the event of an attack. If he’s elected the “stir the pot” strategy (which he probably has) he will strike out as hard as he can the second the first bomb falls. If Turkey is on that list, they’ll have already been hit before Chirac wakes up enough to answer Bush’s phone call. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2003, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/70 "2003-02-13T03:26:09Z")
The one and only reason that Iraq would make any attack on Turkey is if and when iraq is being attacked from Turkish territory. I call that “self-defense” I do not call that “an attack”. The NATO charter, as has been already mentioned, says " an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all" but I do not consider this scenario to fit the bill. If Spain suddenly decides to start shooting missiles at Morocco across the Straight of Gibraltar and then Morocco starts shooting back, should NATO come to the aid of Spain? I don’t think so. NATO was conceived as a defensive pact, not as an offensive pact. It was meant to deter agression, not to encourage it. Turkey is planning on participating in an agression and expects Iraq might defend themselves. To call self defense an attack is just false. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2003, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/71 "2003-02-13T05:18:49Z")
The point is that we don’t _know_ what Iraq will do under increased geo-political pressure. That is why NATO should allow the deployment of missile defense units in Turkey. An Iraqi first strike against Turkey is an unlikely contingency, but NATO has deployed units before on less likely contingencies. When France, Germany, and Belgium veto the deployment based on _political_ motivations rather than on terms of likelihood of attack, they are weaseling out of their agreement. I would like everyone to forget about the likelihood of an Iraqi first strike, and focus on the conceivability. That is what NATO is supposed to do - defend and deter. The mere fact that a nation is in non-compliance with UN resolutions should be enough for NATO to deploy the purely defensive measures of AWACS and Patriots along a member’s border. NATO renders itself irrelevant on the world stage if it will not take these steps. Look, I don’t _care_ what position France has on war with Iraq. Chirac can stand up in front of the UN and bang his shoe on the table in protest of American agression for all I care. However, France, Germany, and Belgium are not acting in good faith as **NATO** members by vetoing the the purely defensive deployment of anti-missile systems in Turkey in order to play politics. ---
**Author:** ![EhhMon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ce73a5/32.png) [@EhhMon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EhhMon)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2003, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/72 "2003-02-13T09:13:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*I think France and Germany are exactly right and that Tony Blair is an embarrassing little poodle. The UK has nothing to apologize for, but as an American let me apologize to the rest of the world for the reprehensible actions of our (unelected) president. America is in the wrong, here, don’t kiss our ass. \*\* Its attitudes like this that let Hitler advance on Europe. Europeans and Americans alike have always been reactionary rather than proactive. And since history has taught us that if we do not learn from the past, that we are doom to repeat it. The US is now taking a proactive stance. Its a shame that countries like Germany and France have to wait till more innocent lives are taken before stopping it before it starts. A few innocent lives sacrificed now will make up for the million of lives lost if we don’t attack Iraq now. All I have to say is, “Its Time To Kick Ass”. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2003, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/73 "2003-02-13T11:03:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by EhhMon \* > \*\*since history has taught us that if we do not learn from the past, that we are doom to repeat it. The US is now taking a proactive stance. > > Its a shame that countries like Germany and France have to wait till more innocent lives are taken before stopping it before it starts. > > A few innocent lives sacrificed now will make up for the million of lives lost if we don’t attack Iraq now. > > All I have to say is, “Its Time To Kick Ass”. \*\* Please tell me I’m being whooshed. Please. Because otherwise you are a moron. ---
**Author:** ![Scoundrel\_Swanswater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dfb087/32.png) [@Scoundrel\_Swanswater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scoundrel_Swanswater)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2003, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/74 "2003-02-13T11:33:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Its attitudes like this that let Hitler advance on Europe. **WTF** Are you this stupid or am I being swooshed. It is the other way around : following a crazy idiot like George W. Bush and swallowing all his propaganda is what brought Hitler to power. People thinking for themselves and making well-informed decisions is what is needed to make sure fascism never rears its ugly head again. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2003, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/75 "2003-02-13T11:43:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beeblebrox \* > The mere fact that a nation is in non-compliance with UN resolutions should be enough for NATO to deploy the purely defensive measures of AWACS and Patriots along a member’s border. NATO renders itself irrelevant on the world stage if it will not take these steps. I disagree. The only reason Turkey is at risk from Iraq is because Turkey is participating in getting ready to attack Iraq. The only thing Turkey needs to do to be safe is to _not_ participate in the agression. France and Germany believe coming to the aid of Turkey now is, in fact, participating in the preparations for the agression and they do not want to do that and it is their right. I ask again, if Spain starts preparing an agression against Morocco and fears Morocco might retaliate is attacked, can Spain summon Nato to provide defense against a “Moroccan attack”? I don’t think so. If Morocco took the initiative of attacking that is very diferent. If Turkey takes the initiative of participating in the attack against Iraq, then NATO should not be obligated to participate in helping with the agression. I find it interesting that the same people who defend the right of the USA to unilaterally attack Iraq, even against the opposition of the rest of the world, Will deny France and Germany the right to vote what they want and what their peoples want. The same people who say the EU is not democratic or representative are now defending the British government which is clearly going against the wish of the majority of the British people and are attacking the governments of France and Germany which are clearly following the wishes of their people. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2003, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/76 "2003-02-13T11:57:08Z")
Hurrah! We have a Godwin Event! ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2003, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/77 "2003-02-13T11:57:24Z")
> [@](#): > > All I have to say is, “Its Time To Kick Ass”. Wooo. We’re No. 1. Let’s Roll. Book’em Dano. Let’s be careful out there. Read my lips. If you’re not with us you’re against us. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2003, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/78 "2003-02-13T12:32:09Z")
> [@](#): > > All I have to say is, “Its Time To Kick Ass”. Are you enlisted? ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2003, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/79 "2003-02-13T13:01:16Z")
Lock an’ load ! ---
**Author:** ![Francesca](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9fc348/32.png) [@Francesca](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francesca)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2003, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557/80 "2003-02-13T13:08:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yojimbo \* > \*\*Wooo. We’re No. 1. Let’s Roll. Book’em Dano. Let’s be careful out there. Read my lips. If you’re not with us you’re against us. \*\* USA! USA! USA! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-apology-to-the-usa/154557.md?page=5)