Luckily for us, we don’t need the support of second-rate countries like France and Germany. The USA is capable of defending itself against any country on Earth, with or without the UN.
The only reason that Germany and France are against an attack is because they do billions of dollars worth of business with Iraq every year.
Need a cite? Watch the news. Any news.
A lot of Irish people were in the British Army in WWII including my Grandfather.
Does the British Gov./people owe Ireland because of this sacrifice? They certainly haven’t acted like they do in the past.
Witch with all due respect why don’t you talk about them in Coldfires thread “We shall remember”
As I’ve said before Apples and Oranges.
Do you seriously think that the business either of them do with Iraq is more than the business they do with the US? Risking the latter is far more damaging than risking the former. If you believe otherwise, you’re buying into a party line.
You know, I was just sitting here thinking “gosh, I wish an idiot could come along and post some ill informed bollocks”…and then you came along.
Just to recap then, the only reason that countries might be adverse to war is for reasons of trade. Nothing to do with perhaps being a little cautious about lots of people on both sides dying?
It’s nice to see the flip side of the other idiots, who claim that the only reason the US and UK want to invade is for oil. Does opposing stupidity cancel out?
Yeah I agree. If Gore were elected, he would have punched out Sadaam and every member of Al-Qaeda all by himself. Then we wouldn’t be in this mess!!
Gore RULEZ!!
Not to mention the buisness America does with Iraq - something like 10% of our oil comes from there, IIRC. . .
So what’s up with the bitching and moaning ? “We don’t need your dumb support anyway, we’ll just have our own war and it’ll be way cooler that way anyway, so there!”
And whether the upcoming Desert W. Storm has anything to do with “defence” is a point that’s still up for debate.
But seeing as the governments (and the electorate) in France and Germany think attacking Iraq is an utterly idiotic idea, they’re blocking an attempt to use an organization with their names on it to support said war. It’s known as elected representatives carrying out the will of their respective electorates, really a cool concept.
Only reason ? Man you must really be privy to some high-level negotiations in those respective governments. And I am shocked! Shocked! - I tell you, to hear that economic concerns would ever be part of foreign policy decisions. Good thing for you to live in a country where such reasoning would never influence the foreign policy.
Oh, and please tell me more about Belgium’s deep economic entanglement with Iraq.
Honestly, Clint, those are countries who would rather not see NATO crumble, who are not at all happy with EU being split down the middle - they know this will be costly for them. Shouldn’t it give just a little pause for thought that they’re willing to incur those consequences ? Have you entertained the thought that this time, it may be the US that has it wrong ?
Oh, and Squirebob - IMHO, one of the finest way to honour the sacrifice of Allied servicemen in WWII is trying to prevent that the lives of other brave and honourable people are pissed away in needless wars.
In support of my earlier comments to Neurotik: because of the veto, Turkey officially invoked article 4 late and has called an emergency meeting of NATO members.
They are the first NATO member ever to do this. They are the first member to ever have to. France, Germany, and Belgium have turned their backs on Turkey for political reasons rather than reasons of mutual defense. They are weasels.
Well said, that man.
Heh. I like that. Good one, Spiny.
The contribution of Americans in WWII and the subsequent generosity in rebuilding Europe was amongst the noblest acts in modern history. I would hope that my generation of Europeans will remember the supreme sacrifice that was made by so many so far from home. My country retained its neutrality in WWII, a source of pride to many but not to me.
Having said that, America has obviously been governed by a wide range of administrations since WWII, who have pursued a similarly wide range of foreign and defence policies. Such is the nature of democracy. While the US nation as a whole is entitled to command the respect and gratitude of Europeans for the past deeds of its citizens, that respect and gratitude is not the automatic inheritance of every US regime. It is neither right nor healthy that US administrations should expect the unquestioning co-operation of Europe at every turn, and it is even less right and less healthy that they would seek to openly trade on the sacrifice of an earlier generation.
I would like to think that there are no circumstances where European states would not jump to the assistance of the US if it were attacked. Some Americans believe that the current crisis is an example of such circumstances. Like most Europeans, I don’t agree with this view - action against Iraq at this time is not a defensive act by the US, nor can it be directly related to September 11.
Turkey is not being attacked and that possibility will only arise if an attack is launched on Iraq. Therefore, strengthening Turkey’s defences is another step on the path to war. Until that war is mandated by the UN, it seems to me that France, Germany and Belgium are right to call a halt.
Don’t tell what and where I can post yojimbo because you don’t like what I have to say.
But thanks for letting me know that thread exists.
Erg . . . I retract the 10% Figure - I got my figures mixed up:
Here are the statistics, and my sources:
Based on documents downloaded from the Department of Energy, 1-2% of our imported oil came from Iraq in Oct 2002
However
On average - from Nov 2001 to Oct 2002 our purchasing accounted for 25% of Iraq’s exported oil.
That’s on average, granted, and since May it’s tapered off to about 8%. But still - in Dec 2001 we were purchasing over 50% of their exported oil - 10 years since desert storm, and a year into the Dubya Administration.
Full Disclaimer: I’m not an expert on oil economics, I’m just taking figures out of spreadsheets off the DOE site and running basic average/percentage calculations. I welcome someone with better economics skills than I to draw different conclusions. I just wanted to point out that we have an economy with Iraq. Regardless of whether or not the American public knows or acknowledges it, we do trade with them and support their economy. France and Germany are certainly NOT the only NATO nations doing so.
The seed for this knowledge is this document, though it is admittedly outdated.
The 10% figure is actually accurate. . . as of 2000!!
Here are the documents from which I peiced together the statistics I mentioned above:
I always hear from conservative blowhards how liberals “hate America”.
Now I’m starting to see for myself.
<dripping sarcasm>Oh that’s exactly right - because disagreement with policy is equivalent to hatred of the whole. No middle to exclude here - no siree! </dripping sarcasm>
I seem to remember something in my history class, a long time ago, about one of the things that allowed America to work was the notion that people could disagree with each other, and in fact the government, without being de-facto traitors. shrug maybe I misunderstood.
Of course, if you can understand what I just wrote I’ll buy ya a candy-bar! (lousy goddamned grammer on my part - appologies. . .) 
Clint,
Are you reading the same thread as me? I won’t speak for anyone else but I do not hate America or Americans. I disagree with your administration’s current policy on Iraq. That is patently not the same thing. Feel free to criticise my Government’s stance on pretty much anything. I may or may not agree with you but I promise you I won’t get offended and I certainly won’t say that you “hate Ireland”.
So, relax, I don’t hate you. In fact, I’m very fond of you;).
Clint, you’re not helping.
MLC, the cynic’s economic exlanation for European heel dragging has less to do with total dollars and more to do with contracts. France and Russia have signifigant oil contracts with Iraq that will go operational if sanctions are lifted. (cite) Spain, China, and the UK have smaller ones, but the US has none. The cynics point out that those contracts may not be honored if war produces a regime change. Therefore, the situation for American oil companies operating under the UN’s “oil for food” program shouldn’t change much with an Iraqi regime change, but the situation for French and Russian oil companies could change considerably for the worst.
As for me, I think there is much more to the French and Russian opposition to the war than the desire of their politicians to fellate their oil companies, but I thought I’d post what I think Clint was ineptly trying to get at earlier.
Manwithaplan, you have many good points in your post at the top of this page, but I must disagree about the correctness of France, Germany, and Belgium’s actions. NATO is not the UN and NATO members have responsibilities to NATO in addition to their responsibilities to the UN. I would put forth that the member nations have a responsibility to aid each other militarily against contingencies as well as against actual attacks. Previously, such as during the cold war, this was an unspoken agreement. By forcing Turkey to invoke article 4 and bring this unspoken agreement into the open, France et al have seriously damaged NATO’s credibility. As far as the “path to war”? All Turkey wants is some AWACS and some PATRIOTS.
Excuse me, but opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and you are talking out yours with this statement. I do not need you to apologize for me, an American, and I certainly don’t need you to tell me what is right and what is wrong. And it’s your opinion on the unelected president that will keep our country split. The man has been in office quite a while now so how long are you gonna keep up with the whining bull (by the way I voted for Gore, not that it makes a difference and not that it’s any of your business) but all Americans that voted for Gore do not share your opinion. It’s time to let it go. And who are you to say who I want to kiss my ass?
The majority of Americans didn’t vote at all.
Regardless, the point is moot, since the majority of Americans does not, and never has, elected the President.