# An argument against DEI **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 6, 2025, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954 "2025-02-06T15:42:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2025, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/283 "2025-02-19T09:10:24Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > they are doing the same thing everywhere “They do it to everyone” and personal animus are not mutually exclusive options. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2025, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/284 "2025-02-19T12:15:51Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > You weren’t just reserving judgement on the FAA case though, you were trying to defend the FAA and explain away the Biographical Assessment. False. I said very clearly: _“if that allegation stands up, then that’s an outright cheating scandal”_ and _“if the FAA thing holds up, then those responsible have not just harmed the candidates excluded for unfair reasons, but also many of the minorities in other jobs”_ Sounds a lot like someone reserving judgement to me. > [@DemonTree](#): > > And the fact the article with the evidence predates the talking point by a year makes no difference? It in no way predates the talking point. Attacks on DEI go back right to its introduction. The FAA case is being _exploited_ right now, because it fits with RW rhetoric and they really want anything wrong that happens to be the fault of one of the groups they are persecuting (even though currently the data so far seems to imply it was not the fault of ATC, let alone that it was an ATC hired under DEI policies) > [@DemonTree](#): > > Bad DEI is still DEI. Again, it’s not DEI. Show me the DEI policy that says cheating should take place. Or do you want to bite the bullet and criticize high school athletics because there was a school that was giving steroids to students? > [@DemonTree](#): > > Yes, that’s in society’s interest, though it’s unlikely you’d end up with parity in every profession because different people value different things. Agreed; indeed I’ve said this repeatedly. > [@DemonTree](#): > > I think it took that long because of wider societal factors, which could not possibly have been changed by employers trying to hire more women. Really? So it took close to _two centuries_ to reach the level of female representation that we have, with women initially needing to work in secret and publish under male peers’ names, and it couldn’t have been sped up at all? That having women scientists publicly in that role and accepted would have had no effect? ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2025, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/285 "2025-02-19T13:27:51Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > And, there was no report about it being because of DEI, again, the misguided diversity effort could had been because of radical affirmative action or misguided quotas, **not DEI as my training taught me about it.** You’re saying that you don’t consider a **diversity effort** to be part of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI)? What exactly do you think the D means, if it doesn’t include diversity efforts? > [@GIGObuster](#): > > Incidentally, why is that you think me saying: “Yes it can be criticized, as well as other demonstrated DEI problems” means that I contradict myself or that I’m not clear is a silly thing. You left out the part where you also said that it _can’t_ be criticized. That’s the contradiction. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > The point here is that it is your turn to show where the FAA got a DEI consulting firm or group to organize the testing What, did you think this whole conversation was about consulting firms? No one said it was a consulting firm. It was an internal effort by the FAA to increase diversity. That’s the D in DEI. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2025, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/286 "2025-02-19T13:38:07Z")
> [@Ms2001](#): > > You’re saying that you don’t consider a **diversity effort** to be part of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI)? > > What exactly do you think the D means, if it doesn’t include diversity efforts? That is like saying that there is democracy in the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea. Or that (more to the point) that There is any **efficiency** in Elon Musk’s DOGE. > [@Ms2001](#): > > You left out the part where you also said that it _can’t_ be criticized. That’s the contradiction. Nope, you need to demonstrate still that what the FAA was following DEI frameworks, there were a lot of steps missing in the alleged failures of the FAA in 2018, that companies and institutions looked at DEI consultants was mostly a thing that came late in 2020. So, as I can see there is no evidence from you that it was coming from a DEI group, we can dismiss your silly accusation here. (That, as mentioned many times before, it follows what the Musk and Trump’ bigots are pushing now) So far it looks as if it was a misguided guy at the FAA that thought that the exam was a proper way to do it. I can critisize then a dumb guy at the FAA that did not consult DEI experts. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2025, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/287 "2025-02-19T22:21:21Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > That is like saying that there is democracy in the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea. Or that (more to the point) that There is any **efficiency** in Elon Musk’s DOGE. Then perhaps you can answer the question I asked you: _What exactly do you think the D means, if it doesn’t include diversity efforts?_ Do you believe the “Diversity” in “Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion” has always been a sham, the way “Democratic” is in the DPRK? Or does DEI, perhaps, have something to do with diversity? I’m pretty sure most people would say it does. If your training taught you otherwise, I hope it’s not too late to get your money back. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > So, as I can see there is no evidence from you that it was coming from a DEI group, we can dismiss your silly accusation here. No one ever said it came from a “DEI group”. I’m not surprised you’d rather beat up that strawman than address what I’m actually saying, though. DEI has been in the news recently because, for example, some large companies said they’re shutting down their DEI programs. Do you believe those programs were run by external “DEI groups”? (I guarantee at least one of them was run by the company itself.) Or do you believe the companies are mistaken, and the programs they shut down weren’t _really_ DEI? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2025, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/288 "2025-02-19T23:35:34Z")
> [@Ms2001](#): > > Then perhaps you can answer the question I asked you: _What exactly do you think the D means, if it doesn’t include diversity efforts?_ It is diversity, **the FAA test is just not how it was intended to be used to get it.** ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2025, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/289 "2025-02-19T23:59:16Z")
> [@Ms2001](#): > > Do you believe the “Diversity” in “Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion” has always been a sham, the way “Democratic” is in the DPRK? Or does DEI, perhaps, have something to do with diversity? > > I’m pretty sure most people would say it does. If your training taught you otherwise, I hope it’s not too late to get your money back. No, it is not a sham when one does DEI properly. BTW saying the same as [“many people are saying” is just about telling where you are coming from.](https://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/twitter-mocks-trump-scientist-claim-many-people-are-saying) > [@Ms2001](#): > > No one ever said it came from a “DEI group”. I’m not surprised you’d rather beat up that strawman than address what I’m actually saying, though. Nope, you clearly don’t know how that fallacy works\*\*, I never said you did say it\*\* I only point out what you are missing that so as to get the wrong idea of what me and others are pointing out. You DO need to show that it came from a DEI group or training office to make it the same as the DEI the right is demonizing now, otherwise it was a mishandling effort because the FAA tried to do Affirmative Action, or Equal opportunity the wrong way. And, as one point is always grossly missed, the Trump/Musk administration is also making the EOO to be another baby tossed with the bath water. They do so thanks to fooling many into thinking that all that is the same as DEI. > **[Fired by Trump, EEOC official fears what the anti-discrimination agency will...](https://www.npr.org/2025/02/09/nx-s1-5287582/trump-eeoc-dei-civil-rights-diversity)** > > Jocelyn Samuels was Trump's pick in 2020 to fill a Democratic seat on the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. She was fired in January, accused of embracing "radical" ideology. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2025, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/290 "2025-02-20T00:59:44Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > It is diversity, **the FAA test is just not how it was intended to be used to get it.** Wonderful. Sounds like we agree on that. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > Nope, you clearly don’t know how that fallacy works\*\*, I never said you did say it\*\* I think I understand it better than you do, honestly. You wrote: “Nope, you need to demonstrate still that what the FAA was following DEI frameworks […] as I can see there is no evidence from you that it was coming from a DEI group, we can dismiss your silly accusation here.” I have no obligation to demonstrate that the FAA was “following DEI frameworks” or that their actions were “coming from a DEI group”, because those are _your_ ideas, not mine. I’ve never made those claims. I don’t need to present evidence for claims I’ve never made. You attacked me, as quoted above, for not supporting claims I didn’t make. That’s a strawman. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > BTW saying the same as [“many people are saying” is just about telling where you are coming from.](https://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/twitter-mocks-trump-scientist-claim-many-people-are-saying) First, that’s not the same phrase, nor does it mean the same thing. Second, your personal attacks are really getting tiresome. I’ve already asked you to stop. Third, if you think I’m “coming from” anywhere in the vicinity of Trump or right-wing politics in general, that is… hilariously wrong. I could rattle off my voting record, my party registration, or the organizations and campaigns I’ve volunteered and raised funds for, but frankly I don’t think I owe you that. If you can’t accept that someone on the left can hold the views I’ve expressed here, that’s a failure on your end, not mine. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > You DO need to show that it came from a DEI group or training office to make it the same as the DEI the right is demonizing now As far as I can tell, the right isn’t only demonizing DEI groups and training offices. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2025, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/291 "2025-02-20T01:10:44Z")
I don’t recall anyone saying that only those two things are being demonized by the right. Could you please provide the original quote that lead you to this conclusion? ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2025, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/292 "2025-02-20T01:35:19Z")
I quoted it right above my response…? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2025, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/293 "2025-02-20T01:57:29Z")
No, you didn’t? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2025, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/294 "2025-02-20T02:11:27Z")
> [@Ms2001](#): > > I have no obligation to demonstrate that the FAA was “following DEI frameworks” or that their actions were “coming from a DEI group”, because those are _your_ ideas, not mine. I’ve never made those claims. I don’t need to present evidence for claims I’ve never made. You attacked me, as quoted above, for not supporting claims I didn’t make. That’s a strawman. Wrong again, a strawman goes does not work like that, again, where did I said that you made those claims? So indeed I did say it, because that is the argument, deal with it; or one has to conclude that indeed there is no evidence that the FAA test was a DEI idea, just like and many involved in DEI say. Not considering that it was not really DEI, leads to what we are seeing, complete disregard of the reality that committing cheating in testing, affirmative action, Equal Employment Opportunity and DEI **are not the same**. The reality is that Trump, Musk and others do claim it to be so because they like to do a lot of harm. Don’t fall for it. One can see also that some are still ignoring the timeline, the FAA testing ended in 2018, if that was DEI then that accusation is harder to maintain when DEI groups and training organizations came to be a big deal after 2020. So once again, what the FAA did with that test was not DEI > **[What Is DEI (Really)?](https://seramount.com/articles/what-is-dei-really/)** > > The executive orders from President Trump’s administration have painted a startling and deeply inaccurate picture of DEI efforts. Terms such as “illegal discrimination,” “radical and wasteful government DEI programs and preferencing” and “dangerous,... > ## **DEI Is Not “Illegal Discrimination”** > > The argument often goes like this: People are supposedly being hired, promoted, or admitted to schools based solely on their race, gender, or other identity markers—not their qualifications or abilities. In fact, Trump’s executive order directly calls for “restoring merit-based opportunity.” But this framing fundamentally reflects a misunderstanding of what DEI is about. > > **DEI isn’t about lowering standards or filling quotas.** It’s about acknowledging that merit isn’t always visible in the same way for everyone—and that opportunity hasn’t been distributed equally. Someone born without access to privilege, networks, or resources simply may not have been given a fair chance to thrive. > > Take [supplier diversity](https://seramount.com/events/the-power-of-supplier-diversity-a-dei-and-business-growth-strategy/)—a key tenant of corporate DEI work—as an example. Large corporations don’t engage with small, diverse businesses out of charity or at the expense of quality. They partner with them because these businesses often provide innovative, high-quality products or services that improve outcomes for both the company and its customers. Supplier diversity programs are designed to give these businesses—many of which lack the same networks or opportunities as larger firms—a chance to compete. They level the playing field, allowing merit to shine. And when they succeed, it benefits everyone: the small business, the corporation, and the community. What I have seen when checking how the law was passed to ban the FAA test in 2018, there was no DEI mentioned, it was only banned thanks to the allegations that the test was discriminatory. One has to realize that me and others are humoring others about that being the case for the test here, because the reality is that this case has not been decided by the courts. So far it does look as someone at the FAA did a mess of things, but that was not what DEI groups did recommend to do. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2025, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/295 "2025-02-20T02:15:55Z")
It shows up on my screen. If you’re having trouble finding it, here it is again: > [@GIGObuster](#): > > You DO need to show that it came from a DEI group or training office to make it the same as the DEI the right is demonizing now ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2025, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/296 "2025-02-20T02:18:59Z")
And Bill Maher is mistaken about wokeness too, while claiming to not be a right winger. Making the same mistake as the right is not a strange thing for many moderates. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2025, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/297 "2025-02-20T02:22:00Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Wrong again, a strawman goes does not work like that, again, where did I said that you made those claims? I quoted the part I was replying to right before my response. Here it is again, with a link back to the post where you wrote it: > [@GIGObuster](#): > > Nope, you need to demonstrate still that what the FAA was following DEI frameworks, there were a lot of steps missing in the alleged failures of the FAA in 2018, that companies and institutions looked at DEI consultants was mostly a thing that came late in 2020. So, as I can see there is no evidence from you that it was coming from a DEI group, we can dismiss your silly accusation here. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > So indeed I did say it, because that is the argument, deal with it; or one has to conclude that indeed there is no evidence that it was a DEI idea, just like and many involved in DEI say. I’ve given you the evidence. You seem to have decided to reject it because you’re convinced that diversity programs aren’t part of DEI. I can’t help you with that. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > So once again, what the FAA did with that test was not DEI Classic No True Scotsman. I’m done responding to you. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2025, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/298 "2025-02-20T02:24:23Z")
> [@Ms2001](#): > > I’ve given you the evidence. You seem to have decided to reject it because you’re convinced that diversity programs aren’t part of DEI. I can’t help you with that. Now that IS a straw-man, I never did say that, you are mistaken because I was saying that you are ignoring the evidence and timelines showing that cheating was not a part of DEI, diversity programs that don’t cheat are DEI. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2025, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/299 "2025-02-20T02:26:17Z")
> [@Ms2001](#): > > > [@GIGObuster](#): > > > > So once again, what the FAA did with that test was not DEI > > Classic No True Scotsman. > > I’m done responding to you. Everyone can see that I did quote evidence from DEI groups and organizations, the problem here is that you generalized with little evidence, but the reality is that right wing propaganda does a number even with moderates. The last bit showed that there is no clue about why a fallacy is made of too, it also requires that no evidence is presented for what one claims. Diversity was not the problem at the FAA it was the cheating and apparent discrimination. (that BTW, still has to be shown in court, talk about supporting a rush to judgement) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2025, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/300 "2025-02-20T02:59:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I don’t recall anyone saying that only those two things are being demonized by the right. Could you please provide the original quote that lead you to this conclusion? The thing I do notice is the implication that many from the left are doing that, when the reality is not quite that: [https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article299053395.html](https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article299053395.html) > Unsurprisingly, opinions were heavily skewed by partisanship, with more than twice as many Democrats (73%) as Republicans (30%) expressing favorable views. Independents were somewhere in the middle, with 43% saying they have a positive view of DEI programs and 30% saying they have a negative view. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2025, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/301 "2025-02-20T03:00:24Z")
Show me the word “only”. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2025, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/302 "2025-02-20T03:48:40Z")
It’s inherent in the phrasing. “X has to be Y in order to be in set Z” implies that Z _only_ contains the X’s which are Y, because X’s which are not Y cannot be in Z. In this case, X = the FAA’s program, Y = those two things, Z = the DEI the right is demonizing now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954.md?page=16)