# An argument against DEI **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 6, 2025, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954 "2025-02-06T15:42:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/21 "2025-02-06T16:25:17Z")
And you are talking about a term that was replaced by another when it became troublesome. My proposal is simple: Be troublesome, as often as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/22 "2025-02-06T16:27:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Ask them why they oppose diversity, why they are against equity, and have them explain why inclusion is wrong. Because it reduces the power of older white men. Here is the fault with your OP - you assume that they would be ashamed of admitting that that is the reason. The MAGAs are proud of being racist & sexist. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/23 "2025-02-06T16:32:43Z")
That’s the _point_. Why does it matter if they’re in the top 10% of POC, if they’re still only 40% overall? I mean, I understand how if I’m trying to run a business or government, I wouldn’t want to be forced to hire underqualified workers because of the color of their skin, gender, or sexuality. And I can see how as a competitor for some kind of slot/position/scholarship/whatever, how it would rankle that someone who was overall less qualified got a slot because of something outside of the judging criteria. People differ in opinion on this, and differing doesn’t necessarily mean racism or anything like that. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/24 "2025-02-06T16:33:29Z")
If at least some of them weren’t ashamed they wouldn’t hide behind the acronym. Take the acronym away and force the issue whenever possible. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/25 "2025-02-06T16:34:05Z")
> [@bump](#): > > > [@Jas09](#): > > > > They do not believe that there is anything inherently valuable about diversity; that if you pick the best candidates for the job and they just all happen to be white men, well so be it. > > I think this is the biggest single issue that they are against equity about; the idea that businesses/government could be compelled to hire a lesser candidate simply because of the color of their skin, sexuality, or whatever else _that’s not job performance related_ rankles them, because it’s essentially against everything they’ve ever been taught to expect. Which is that the best candidate will be chosen, and if you lose out on the slot/position/award, it’s because someone else was _better_ than you, not merely something _else_. There isn’t any awareness of historical/structural racism, the difference between equity and equality, etc… Or even if there is awareness, they _ **disagree** _ that POC or whoever should get preferential treatment above and beyond more qualified candidates. I guess this highlights part of the problem. Too many people think DEI means hiring someone less qualified because they’re a minority. What DEI actually means is hiring based on the actual qualifications, instead of hiring based on who you know and who you’re comfortable with. So again, the problem is low-information people blindly accept whatever pandering right-wing media says, instead of thinking about it. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/26 "2025-02-06T16:43:00Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Why does it matter if they’re in the top 10% of POC, if they’re still only 40% overall? I’m including the, not written out, assumption that only 10% of each population has the qualifications for the job. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/27 "2025-02-06T16:45:04Z")
Could this be taken elsewhere, please? ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/28 "2025-02-06T16:47:37Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I’m a bit confused, are you saying that equality of opportunity _isn’t_ what we’re striving for? “Equality” and “equity” are two different things, as has been explained with boxes and a fence. > **[Challenging the Image on Equity and Equality](https://dawnxhenderson.medium.com/challenging-the-image-on-equity-and-equality-c3bb93ff0fb0)** > > Recently, I attended a workshop on equity, and the presenter decided to use the often circulated image of three people standing behind a… ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/29 "2025-02-06T16:50:56Z")
This numbers problem is at the root of Diversity and Equity. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/30 "2025-02-06T16:51:12Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > > **How to Reply as a linked Topic** > > > > Click Reply, in the upper left corner of the reply window is the reply type button, _looks like a curving arrow point to the right_. > > > > Choose **Reply as linked topic** and it starts a new thread. As an example, you can choose GD, IMHO or The Pit for it. > > > > That is actually the best method. > > Could this be taken elsewhere, please? > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > I’m including the, not written out, assumption that only 10% of each population has the qualifications for the job. **Moderating** : Agreed, take it somewhere else if you like, but drop it here. > **How to Reply as a linked Topic** > > Click Reply, in the upper left corner of the reply window is the reply type button, _looks like a curving arrow point to the right_. > > Choose **Reply as linked topic** and it starts a new thread. As an example, you can choose GD, IMHO or The Pit for it. > > That is actually the best method. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/31 "2025-02-06T16:58:11Z")
The Right would be happy to spell out its opposition to Diversity, Equity and Inclusion (especially Diversity, viewed as a codeword for what it sees as unfair racial/ethnic preference). Right-wingers have had no problems using Critical Race Theory as a term of opprobrium instead of CRT. It’s a losing battle to try to “force” the other side to use your preferred terminology/abbreviations/lack of abbreviation when it’s struck gold with its own characterization and produced a wedge issue it can exploit. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/32 "2025-02-06T17:11:51Z")
It is so easy to find out if they would be just as happy to use the whole term, instead of the acronym. Let’s find out if that is true. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/33 "2025-02-06T17:12:45Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I’m a bit confused, are you saying that equality of opportunity _isn’t_ what we’re striving for? I’m not sure how you accomplish that. Randomly assign newborns to parents at birth, so that their skin color, background, ethnicity, and financial situation doesn’t affect their prospects? Does someone whose parents went to Yale and is then a legacy have the same opportunity as someone whose parents have just come to the US with no college education and speak no English? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/34 "2025-02-06T17:20:48Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > What DEI actually means is hiring based on the actual qualifications, instead of hiring based on who you know and who you’re comfortable with. I disagree. DEI means that when you have a diverse group that has a variety of experiences where everyone has their viewpoint considered equally and impartially and that consideration of their input is included in the final outcome, the end result will be better (by whatever metric you are using) than and old white man having his decision agreed to by old white yes-men. This takes DEI far beyond just hiring practices. It means that your department has women, people of color, people who cane from low SES, etc. AND that they are listened to by management. It means that in heterogeneous study/project groups everyone’s ideas are freely expressed and they’re integraded if appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/35 "2025-02-06T17:39:31Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > It’s a losing battle to try to “force” the other side to use your preferred terminology/abbreviations/lack of abbreviation when it’s struck gold with its own characterization and produced a wedge issue it can exploit. It is even sadder when looking at the hypocrisy coming from the likes of Gegg Abbot from Texas, DEI is about allowing opportunities (by merit too!) to women and the disabled. There is no other conclusion here, the only “merit” for women and the disabled is that they should be MAGA to be considered now. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2025, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/36 "2025-02-15T15:19:32Z")
3 posts were merged into an existing topic: [Nellie’s Trocking](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nellies-trocking/1014334/21) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/38 "2025-02-06T18:02:08Z")
It’s not a fight we’re going to win. The right wing was able to demonize the word democracy. The problem is the right wing works for mega-corporations which control the media, among other things. So they can set a message and have it delivered in a way ordinary people cannot. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/40 "2025-02-06T18:12:15Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I disagree. DEI means that when you have a diverse group that has a variety of experiences where everyone has their viewpoint considered equally and impartially and that consideration of their input is included in the final outcome, the end result will be better (by whatever metric you are using) than and old white man having his decision agreed to by old white yes-men. I hate to mention it here, but my company has a strong DEI program and I am a part of several networking groups that are not the same as my race/gender, so I support the DEI framework. However, just because we have a strong DEI presence, doesn’t mean there are not still strong favoritism issues at hand. If you look at my dept org chart (which includes people’s photos) there is a strong correlation between the way a hiring manager looks and the people on their team. If our hiring was truly equitable, I would think the teams would appear, at least, more diverse, but the fact is managers tend to hire people like them. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/41 "2025-02-06T18:15:57Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > If our hiring was truly equitable, I would think the teams would appear, at least, more diverse, True but that is only the first step. Having a diverse group is not DEI if you are ignored because you are a woman or a feel compelled as a black man to agree and not share a differing view. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954/42 "2025-02-06T18:39:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It is so easy to find out if they would be just as happy to use the whole term, instead of the acronym. Let’s find out if that is true. Sure, here you go: Pete Hegseth on “Diversity”: [Defense Secretary Hegseth: "Our Diversity Is Not Our Strength," We Don't Have Time To Emphasize Differences | Video | RealClearPolitics](https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2025/01/29/defense_secretary_hegseth_our_diversity_is_not_our_strength_we_dont_have_time_to_emphasize_differences.html) Trump EO on “Radical Indoctrination”: [Ending Radical Indoctrination in K-12 Schooling – The White House](https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/01/ending-radical-indoctrination-in-k-12-schooling/) Note, it doesn’t shy away from using “diversity”, “equity”, or “inclusion”. All three words are spelled out in the EO. (ETA: In fact, “DEI” is not used as an acronym at all in the document). I can find similar quotes from Marco Rubio, JD Vance, and any other of the MAGA cohort. They are perfectly clear about what they mean by all three of the DEI components, and why they want to eliminate them. “DEI” is just a shorthand they use to lump together any efforts to identify, and correct for, biases that still exist in the American system. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-argument-against-dei/1013954.md?page=3)