# An article from Ireland's Independent about Trump's victory **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 12, 2016, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-article-from-irelands-independent-about-trumps-victory/774535 "2016-12-12T17:44:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2016, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-article-from-irelands-independent-about-trumps-victory/774535/21 "2016-12-12T23:47:43Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Certainty when correct is no vice, and waffling when justified is no virtue. The bloke is correct, in this case. No. He’s not. If this were posted in an online paper it would be accurately labeled as fake news. Just because it’s a liberal opinion doesn’t make it a fact. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2016, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-article-from-irelands-independent-about-trumps-victory/774535/22 "2016-12-12T23:51:32Z")
Nope; just because it’s a fact makes it a fact. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2016, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-article-from-irelands-independent-about-trumps-victory/774535/23 "2016-12-13T00:12:30Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Nice wishful thinking, Ivan, but most Americans do _not_ obsess over “the number [the Clintons] did on Russia.” Most Americans wouldn’t even know what you’re talking about. Perhaps they should. **[The Plunder of Russia in the 1990s](https://paullikoudis.wordpress.com/2011/03/24/the-plunder-of-russia-in-the-1990s/)** - At its simplest, it is a breezy, slightly cynical, highly entertaining narrative of Russian history from the last months of Gorbachev’s rule to April 2000 — a period which saw Russia transformed from a decaying socialist economy (which despite its shortcomings, provided a modest standard of living to its citizens) to a “managed economy” where home-grown gangsters and socialist theoreticians from the West, like Hay and his fellow Harvardian Jeffrey Sachs, delivered 2,500% inflation and indescribable poverty, and transferred the ownership of Russian industry to Western financiers.\* - Williamson was an eyewitness who lived on and off in Russia for more than ten years, where she reported on all things Russian for The New York Times, Th e Wall Street Journal, and a host of other equally reputable publications. She knew and interviewed just about everybody involved in this gargantuan plundering scheme: Russian politicians and businessmen, the new “gangster” capitalists and their American sponsors from the IMF, the World Bank, USAID, Credit Suisse First Boston, the CIA, the KGB — all in all, hundreds of sources who spoke candidly, often ruthlessly, of their parts in this terrible human drama.\* - Once the Clinton regime and its lapdogs in the media defined Russian thug Boris Yeltsin as a “democrat,” the wholesale looting of Russia began. According to the socialist theoreticians at Harvard, Russia needed to be brought into the New World Order in a hurry; and what better way to do it than Sachs’ “shock therapy” — a plan that empowered the degenerate, third-generation descendants of the original Bolsheviks by assigning them the deeds of Russia’s mightiest state-owned industries — including the giant gas, oil, electrical, and telecommunications industries, the world’s largest paper, iron, and steel factories, the world’s richest gold, silver, diamond, and platinum mines, automobile and airplane factories, etc. — who, in turn, sold some of their shares of the properties to Westerners for a song, and pocketed the cash, while retaining control of the companies.\* The same is now being repeated on the West. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2016, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-article-from-irelands-independent-about-trumps-victory/774535/24 "2016-12-13T00:26:07Z")
I’m no fan of privatization. Yes, it creates oligarchs (thus making it as attractive to would-be dictators as it may have been to ‘westernizers.’) ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2016, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-article-from-irelands-independent-about-trumps-victory/774535/25 "2016-12-13T00:45:48Z")
OP, the quoted sections were memes repeated through this election cycle to the point of cliche. Trump was repeatedly called a middle finger, or a brick through the window, or a molotov cocktail thrown at the elites. SJWs and black people were blamed for reactionaries, like always. Hillary was called a bad candidate now, six months ago, and eight years ago. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2016, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-article-from-irelands-independent-about-trumps-victory/774535/26 "2016-12-13T23:17:48Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Some days I feel like I’m the only person who actually looked at Clinton’s website. She had plans. She had _tons_ of plans. She presented those plans, albeit not as much as she should have. Hillary’s _whole thing_ was that she was a policy wonk. She knew policy front to back. I don’t know why nobody listened. Ever think that they listened and didn’t like what they heard? ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-article-from-irelands-independent-about-trumps-victory/774535/27 "2016-12-14T00:10:45Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Oh I understand correctly, the writer from the op does not because he says that: > > Yep, he said most **Americans**. Not just Iowans or other states. Not correct then. And so it goes for a lot of the points he made. Now if it was just talking about what about half of the people in the rust belt and Florida think, then he can have a point. That is not what he said. The quote is _“most Americans don’t care about transgender bathrooms, or safe spaces, or government speech laws”._ That is absolutely true. Those types of issues are just smokescreens that get randomly thrown out and they aren’t important at all to most Americans. That is one thing the Left should learn if they want to be more successful. You can’t just bombard people with the fringe social issues of the week and expect them to listen for long. Why would someone in Michigan give two shits about transgender bathrooms in North Carolina when they just lost their job? It is the lack of perspective that wears people down (not in a good way) and pisses them off. Out of all the important issues we could be discussing, many on the Left pick some random, bullshit ones in quick succession when they believe they have the political upper hand and then blow it because people find it so obnoxious. These fads come in cycles. I saw the same ones when I was in college in the early 1990’s before it got beaten down for the same reasons. I assumed it was dead for good but no, it came back with a vengeance in the last 5 years or so until sensible people got sick of it yet again. I would love to think they will learn for good this time and focus on much higher priority issues but we all know that won’t happen in the long-term. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-article-from-irelands-independent-about-trumps-victory/774535/28 "2016-12-14T00:24:02Z")
“These fads” affect _people._ The USA appears to be divided between those who are capable of caring about those who don’t happen to be identical to themselves, and those who lack that capacity. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-article-from-irelands-independent-about-trumps-victory/774535/29 "2016-12-14T00:30:54Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Ever think that they listened and didn’t like what they heard? No, they were fed a line of complete bullshit by Trump, and preferred candy and ponies over policy and hard work. The believed the absolute crap that was fed to them by facebook memes, over the actual reports containing facts and critical thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-article-from-irelands-independent-about-trumps-victory/774535/30 "2016-12-14T00:32:34Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > “These fads” affect _people._ The USA appears to be divided between those who are capable of caring about those who don’t happen to be identical to themselves, and those who lack that capacity. They don’t just “lack the capacity” of caring. They want to actively persecute and hate those who are different from them, and have been getting more and more pissed off over the past years that they are no longer allowed to do this in public. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-article-from-irelands-independent-about-trumps-victory/774535/31 "2016-12-14T00:42:18Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > That is not what he said. The quote is _“most Americans don’t care about transgender bathrooms, or safe spaces, or government speech laws”._ > > That is absolutely true. Meh, as Hillary got almost 3 millions more votes it follows that most voters did care. But to turn it around, why is it then that we should ignore what most Americans wanted? Sure, I know the rules, they tell us that because of the Electoral [del]collage[/del] College that Trump will be the president, but the rules also tell us that he could not hang around for long if he decides to ignore what the plurality of Americans wanted. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-article-from-irelands-independent-about-trumps-victory/774535/32 "2016-12-14T21:53:38Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > They don’t just “lack the capacity” of caring. > > They want to actively persecute and hate those who are different from them, and have been getting more and more pissed off over the past years that they are no longer allowed to do this in public. Yes. And they want, also, to feel righteous about the persecuting and hating. And to be exempt from criticism. Speaking of hate-mongers, we can confidently expect that the “thank you tour” rallies that take place after December 19 will be much more–shall we say–_exciting_ than the pre-EC-vote rallies. Trump has been visibly refraining from going where his instincts lead him; he’s permitted himself only some stray comments about the Disgusting Media. But after this thing is locked down, he will be going for the passionate cheering that comes _only_ in response to really vicious scapegoating. Huzzah! ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-article-from-irelands-independent-about-trumps-victory/774535/33 "2016-12-16T15:16:34Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > No, BLM is not racist. Yes, Republicans are. When you say this who are you talking about? Every member of the Republican Party? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-article-from-irelands-independent-about-trumps-victory/774535/34 "2016-12-17T07:45:13Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Why would someone in Michigan give two shits about transgender bathrooms in North Carolina when they just lost their job? Who expected them to? To the best of my memory, only one presidential candidate (Ted Cruz) tried to make bathrooms a major part of his campaign, and he lost way back in May. Is there any evidence that the result in November had anything to do with bathrooms? I’ve heard that several times, even though neither general election candidate made a big deal about them, and the only candidate (Pat McCrory) who seems to have lost as a result of bathrooms was a Republican. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-article-from-irelands-independent-about-trumps-victory/774535/35 "2016-12-17T08:58:53Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Meh, as Hillary got almost 3 millions more votes it follows that most voters did care. It’s fairly specious to claim that most American voters preferred Hillary. In reality it was most mega-city voters voters who preferred Hillary, and even then by not all that wide a margin. And the reason most huge city voters trend Democratic is because they have large population segments who’ve been trained over the last 50 years to look to the government to take care of them and provide for them. So they vote Democratic because they know Democrats are the ones who’ll work to buy their votes with other people’s money. This rarely works out well, however, as the most heavily Democratic/liberal cities in America are not so coincidentally hell-holes to live in. Detroit, Chicago, Baltimore, etc., are perfect examples. And then we have coastal California, with a huge population of illegal immigrants who have legal relatives here who are all too happy to vote Democratic because it’s the Democrats who want to give illegals drivers licenses and health care and welfare, and who have even taken to trying to make all of a state’s residents eligible to vote whether they’re legal citizens or not. And then of course we have San Francisco, where people are freely pissing in public and having naked bicycle protest rides and the stench and disgusting behavior of homeless drug addicts and criminals who are allowed to accost people and crash anywhere and everywhere is inescapable. But the politicians there _care_ about people, so nothing can be done about all that crap but to allow more of it. So yeah, given all this, Hillary drew more votes than Trump. But most of those votes came from people who care about transgender bathrooms and safe spaces and micro aggressions so much as they cared about continuing government assistance, impotent municipal governance that allows them to do what they want, and open borders. And yet even with all that, Hillary only barely edged Trump in these areas. Her 3 million or whatever vote margin is a total from all these big city areas across the country. When you consider that metropolitan L.A. alone has a population of almost 20 million, it becomes apparent that Hillary’s superior popular vote margin, which is meaningless anyway given that the country was deliberately set up so as not to allow large population areas to call all the shots, was really just a squeaker and attributable not to a basket of deplorables but to a basket of dependants. Remove them from the equation and you have a plurality of the productive and law abiding segment of American votership who feel much as those described in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-article-from-irelands-independent-about-trumps-victory/774535/36 "2016-12-17T10:03:10Z")
> [@](#): > > One perfect example of this new America has been the renewed calls for segregation on campuses. Even a few years ago, such a move would have been greeted with understandable horror by civil rights activists - but this time it’s the black students demanding segregation and “safe spaces” from whites. If young people calling for racial segregation from each other isn’t the sign of a very, very sick society, nothing is. Well, first off, first time I’ve read of this. Skimming Google a bit it looks like it was a petition by a bunch of black students, not anything widespread at all, and it mostly was grabbed by right-wing media as some sort of meme. In any case, there’s a trillion things worse than that. Like actual segregation, for instance. > [@](#): > > “This is a country in crisis, and most Americans don’t care about transgender bathrooms, or safe spaces,” If they didn’t care, why would that be an issue? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-article-from-irelands-independent-about-trumps-victory/774535/37 "2016-12-17T10:37:24Z")
> [@Smitty](#): > > … The fact is that liberals no longer even try to sell their beliefs. They simply insult people who disagree with them… > > However, if you go to someone and say, “Look, you big bowl of ugly, I know you’re too stupid to get this, but I’ll try using small words…”, do you really think ANYTHING you say will get that person to change his mind? :smack: Wrong. The rational thinkers start by explaining things clearly and patiently, trying long words, short words and then medium-sized words. It’s only when the bloated-amygdala types stubbornly ignore reason, facts and logic, and demonstrate that they cling only to the “truths” of Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh, that the rational thinkers get exasperated and resort to insults, thinking in vain that maybe strong language is the way to get through to the willfully ignorant. For example, many of the anti-Hillary crowd base some of their hatred on her alleged support for the 2003 Iraq War. I provided Hillary’s actual words explaining her vote from the Senate floor. Two people thanked me, saying it had reversed their understanding but these were voters who were going to vote for Hillary anyway, just now with less reluctance. The anti-Hillary Trumpists continued to prattle their ignorance. For another example: > [@sleestak](#): > > Your inability to understand the Electoral College is rather sad. Nobody here misunderstands the electoral college, nor do they believe any other Doper does. But for 49% of Americans random snark and nonsensical innuendo trump reason. As with third-graders squabbling on the playground, reason doesn’t enter into it. Trumpism trumps reason. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-article-from-irelands-independent-about-trumps-victory/774535/38 "2016-12-17T10:46:38Z")
If they understood the electoral college they wouldn’t be endlessly whinging about the popular vote. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-article-from-irelands-independent-about-trumps-victory/774535/39 "2016-12-17T23:51:46Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > It’s fairly specious to claim that most American voters preferred Hillary. In reality it was most mega-city voters voters who preferred Hillary, and even then by not all that wide a margin. > > And the reason most huge city voters trend Democratic is because they have large population segments who’ve been trained over the last 50 years to look to the government to take care of them and provide for them. So they vote Democratic because they know Democrats are the ones who’ll work to buy their votes with other people’s money. > > This rarely works out well, however, as the most heavily Democratic/liberal cities in America are not so coincidentally hell-holes to live in. Detroit, Chicago, Baltimore, etc., are perfect examples. > > And then we have coastal California, with a huge population of illegal immigrants who have legal relatives here who are all too happy to vote Democratic because it’s the Democrats who want to give illegals drivers licenses and health care and welfare, and who have even taken to trying to make all of a state’s residents eligible to vote whether they’re legal citizens or not. > > And then of course we have San Francisco, where people are freely pissing in public and having naked bicycle protest rides and the stench and disgusting behavior of homeless drug addicts and criminals who are allowed to accost people and crash anywhere and everywhere is inescapable. But the politicians there _care_ about people, so nothing can be done about all that crap but to allow more of it. > > So yeah, given all this, Hillary drew more votes than Trump. But most of those votes came from people who care about transgender bathrooms and safe spaces and micro aggressions so much as they cared about continuing government assistance, impotent municipal governance that allows them to do what they want, and open borders. > > And yet even with all that, Hillary only barely edged Trump in these areas. Her 3 million or whatever vote margin is a total from all these big city areas across the country. When you consider that metropolitan L.A. alone has a population of almost 20 million, it becomes apparent that Hillary’s superior popular vote margin, which is meaningless anyway given that the country was deliberately set up so as not to allow large population areas to call all the shots, was really just a squeaker and attributable not to a basket of deplorables but to a basket of dependants. Remove them from the equation and you have a plurality of the productive and law abiding segment of American votership who feel much as those described in the OP. In your long history here, this rates as one of the largest steaming dumps you have left. So, urban voters don’t count because we’re “on the dole.” Nope. Most of us are in the cities because that’s where the work is. We’re not waiting beside a hole in the ground, hoping to mine coal again. We’re not hoping those red brick textile mills over the river reopen. These mills are in the far off city of my birth–but most of them now house apartments for commuters down to Boston, cool restaurants & at least one craft brewery. (The mills moved South many years ago; people adjusted.) Those cities you call hell-holes are not that bad. _Even Detroit_ has patches where people are looking to the future. Chicago? Baltimore? Those gangster movies & those police shows are \*not \*reality. San Francisco’s main problem is gentrification; those weirdos can hardly afford to live there any more. Thank you for showing that Trump voters are not all pore folks looking for a better America. Apparently a large number are racist, xenophobic, homophobic, transphobic–and fearful of the future. The Electoral college was created by the Constitution but its undemocratic balance was created by the great minds who gave us the [Apportionment Act of 1911](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apportionment_Act_of_1911). Despite that, if we’d managed to get more sane people out–we would have won the Electoral college, too. (Always remember that more of us wanted Clinton–Trump surely does.) The next two years will be rough. They’ll be rough for quite a few Trump voters–even more than us useless city dwellers. But we’ll do what we can to fight the wretched Republicans (not just their Idiot Leader) & keep our principles, too. I live in Houston, Texas. We’ve got a population greater than any of 30 states & we went for Hillary. Where do you live? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2016, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-article-from-irelands-independent-about-trumps-victory/774535/40 "2016-12-18T00:05:26Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > This rarely works out well, however, as the most heavily Democratic/liberal cities in America are not so coincidentally hell-holes to live in. Detroit, Chicago, Baltimore, etc., are perfect examples. Chicago has its issues but a hell-hole it is not. I can live pretty much wherever I want, and this is where I choose. I love this city. And it’s not a liberal city. Democrat, yes. Liberal, not as much. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-article-from-irelands-independent-about-trumps-victory/774535.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-article-from-irelands-independent-about-trumps-victory/774535.md?page=3)