# An asterisk for Aaron Judge? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** baseball-mlb\ **Created:** [September 29, 2022, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453 "2022-09-29T13:42:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/41 "2022-09-30T06:32:44Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > He hit #61 on Wednesday; it was the Yankees’ 155th game of the season. They have seven games remaining on their schedule. Oh boo, that bums me out. Stupid slump. Ah well, thanks much for the answer. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/42 "2022-09-30T11:30:40Z")
If another baseball league formed to compete with MLB, and they were “anything goes” as far as PEDs, I would be interested and watch their games. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/43 "2022-09-30T11:57:51Z")
At least everyone would be on even ground. I find that much preferable to a few people cheating and getting fabulously rich and famous from it while many honest players are rewarded far less for being honest. “The Big Hurt”, Frank Thomas, lost out on the MVP award in, I believe, 2000, to Jason Giambi who later admitted in 2007 that all of those earlier accomplishments were steroid fueled. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/44 "2022-09-30T12:21:57Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > a few people cheating and getting fabulously rich and famous from it But they pay the price long term. Lyle Alzado’s brain cancer death at 43 _may_ have been due to his anabolic steroid use. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/45 "2022-09-30T12:44:29Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > If another baseball league formed to compete with MLB, and they were “anything goes” as far as PEDs, I would be interested and watch their games. It happened. And we did watch. MLB was complicit with PEDs, as were the fans. I knew Barry was juicing. Okay, maybe not ‘knew’ but strongly suspected. Mark McGwire used to have back injuries frequently. Then he started juicing and, voila!, no more injuries. Or at least he healed a lot faster. Remember Danny Darwin? This discussion reminded me of him, just now. He was a RHP who pitched for 8 teams in a 21 season career. His last team was the Giants in 1998. In that 1998 SFG season he and Bonds got into an altercation in the dugout during an April game. In April 1998 Darwin was 42, and Bonds was 33. Wiki describes it briefly. > **[Danny Darwin | Physical altercation with Barry Bonds](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Darwin#Physical_altercation_with_Barry_Bonds)** > > During a game while playing with the Giants, Darwin and Barry Bonds got into a heated argument when Bonds lazily fielded a hit that became an RBI. One quote I remember after that incident was Darwin saying something like, “I don’t know, call me old school but when I played the game, hitters declined as they got older, they didn’t get better.” Something like that. I’ll look for it. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/46 "2022-09-30T12:45:42Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > a few people cheating and getting fabulously rich and famous This is simply incorrect - go and look at the list of players who have tested positive over the years. You’re making a lot of weird unfounded statements in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/47 "2022-09-30T12:56:36Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > At least everyone would be on even ground. Never gonna happen. As long as athletes believe that there are advantages to be had from PEDs, they will be pushing the line. There will be a constant push by the athletes to stay one step ahead of the testing organizations, and a response by the leagues to catch up. I’m all for testing, I think PEDs should be banned, but I don’t think today’s athletes are appreciably cleaner than those in the past. At least that is my assumption unless proved otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/48 "2022-09-30T13:06:43Z")
I can’t seem to find the Danny Darwin quote, but I remember it so well because it really hit the nail on the head. All athletes are encouraged to cheat. Any competitive advantage gained means you stay longer and play longer, and better. And you can be compensated very well for that, not just financially but there’s also the fan adulation. Like the quote from the movie, _Hoosiers_ (1986): Myra Fleener: “I don’t want this to be the high point of his life. I’ve seen them, the real sad ones. They sit around the rest of their lives talking about their glory days, when they were 17 years old.” Norman Dale: “You know, most people would kill to be treated like a god, just for a few moments.” ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/49 "2022-09-30T13:10:38Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > As long as athletes believe that there are advantages to be had from PEDs, they will be pushing the line. My response was to the person who said he would watch an “anything goes” baseball league, so the idea is that there would be no lines to push, no standards to meet, and no rules in place in regards to performance enhancing drugs. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/50 "2022-09-30T13:11:16Z")
Fair enough, I think we’re in agreement there. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/51 "2022-09-30T13:12:52Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Less; there haven’t yet been 162 games played. And now I’m curious how many actual games it took Maris and Judge to hit 61 You can find game by game logs for any player on Baseball Reference; here is Maris in 1961. > **[Roger Maris 1961 Batting Game Logs | Baseball-Reference.com](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=marisro01&t=b&year=1961)** > > Roger Maris Every game played with complete stats, links to box scores and automated row summing for 1961 He tied Ruth in Game 159 and broke the record in the very last game. > [@EllisDee](#): > > ETA: Google says Ruth hit 60 home runs when seasons were 154 games. I’m pretty sure Judge hit 61 in fewer than 154 games. I really hope he did. Judge hit #61 in Game 155. (I am counting games by team games - Judge has missed four games.) ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/52 "2022-09-30T13:13:22Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > is is simply incorrect - go and look at the list of players who have tested positive over the years. You’re making a lot of weird unfounded statements in this thread. I said, “a few”. So, your saying that people like Sammy Sosa, Mark McGuire, Jason Giambi, etc did not get way more famous and wealthy from their steroid use, and that my claim that they did is a “weird and unfounded” statement? Hmm … ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/53 "2022-09-30T13:20:01Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > but I don’t think today’s athletes are appreciably cleaner than those in the past. At least that is my assumption unless proved otherwise. That’s why I question the Judge is known to be clean. I just suspect any pro athlete of using cleaner 'roids and better maskers. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/54 "2022-09-30T13:34:10Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > I said, “a few”. Yes, and that’s a ridiculous thing to say. The list of those who have tested positive is long, and filled with a LOT of names you’ve never seen before. And it still doesn’t include the names of McGwire, Soda, Bonds, etc., and doesn’t prove that guys like Frank Thomas didn’t use anything. The PED era wasn’t a high point for MLB. But everyone knew what was happening, and no one gave a shit at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/55 "2022-09-30T13:36:13Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Yes, and that’s a ridiculous thing to say. “A few” is ridiculous when, without a doubt, “a few” have? We’re just not communicating, and this exchange is becoming absurd. I’m done with you. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/56 "2022-09-30T14:07:03Z")
“Without a doubt” 79 players on MLB rosters and 72 with MLB experience on minor league rosters (or who were FAs) tested positive for PEDs. Those are post-2004 numbers. That is more than “a few”, and the vast majority didn’t gain fame and fortune. This court of public opinion is the uneven playing ground. “Oh, Bagwell was a juicer - I can just tell, just like these other guys who I can’t prove anything about. Poor poor Frank Thomas and Griffey were saints I tell ya!” Jose Canseco is currently trying to get people to pay him $79 for him to follow people on Twitter. Pretty low bar for fame and fortune these days… ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/57 "2022-09-30T14:19:47Z")
> [@Jaycat.again](#): > > What would be really interesting would be a list of mediocre hitters who took steroids and remained mediocre. I loathe Barry Bonds, but yeah, steriods will turn a double into a homer, but they can’t turn a whiff into a hit. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/58 "2022-09-30T14:31:58Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > That is more than “a few”, and the vast majority didn’t gain fame and fortune. That has nothing to do with my original statement. You’re saying that, because a high number of players tested positive for steroids, that somehow negates the statement I made that “a few” achieved levels of fame and wealth far beyond what they would have achieved otherwise. Both of these statements are true, but they are “disassociated facts”. There is NO cause and effect relationship between. One has nothing to do with the other in terms of effect and validity. Yet, this is your “argument”? As Nomad said to Kirk in the original Star Trek episode, “The Changeling”: “Non sequitur. Your facts are uncoordinated.” ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/59 "2022-09-30T14:52:06Z")
And Nomad fried himself, blew himself up! ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/60 "2022-09-30T14:54:14Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > > [@Jaycat.again](#): > > > > What would be really interesting would be a list of mediocre hitters who took steroids and remained mediocre. > > I loathe Barry Bonds, but yeah, steriods will turn a double into a homer, but they can’t turn a whiff into a hit. Bonds’ eye and plate discipline were legendary. But how many HRs would have died at the warning track? And, getting back to Judge, do people think he’s taking any kind of performance enhancers? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453.md?page=4)