# An asterisk for Aaron Judge? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** baseball-mlb\ **Created:** [September 29, 2022, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453 "2022-09-29T13:42:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/61 "2022-09-30T15:05:50Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > the statement I made that “a few” achieved levels of fame and wealth far beyond what they would have achieved otherwise. I thought you were claiming only a few were using PEDs. Either way, you’re claiming facts not in evidence. Bonds was well on his way to a Hall of Fame career before his head grew several hat sizes - so much for _his_ grab at immortality, huh? McGwire hit 49 HRs as a rookie - he would have been just fine without them as well. Palmeiro also threw away his legacy. Bonds gets more publicity and attention nowadays because people can’t have nice things - they focus on this non-sensical thread, and ignore the rest of the plot going on. Judge is putting up amazing numbers compared to his contemporaries - why worry about comparing him to guys during the PED era? Focus on what’s happening _now_ - today’s game is SO much fun! ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/62 "2022-09-30T15:30:30Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > I thought you were claiming only a few were using PEDs. Either way, you’re claiming facts not in evidence. Bonds was well on his way to a Hall of Fame career before his head grew several hat sizes - so much for _his_ grab at immortality, huh? McGwire hit 49 HRs as a rookie - he would have been just fine without them as well. Bonds, yes he’d likely be HOF material. Not so sure about McGwire, because he often got injured. The PEDs helped him heal, stay strong, and continue playing. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/63 "2022-09-30T15:31:57Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > And, getting back to Judge, do people think he’s taking any kind of performance enhancers? Some people have raised the question, for sure. Judge is naturally big (6’7", 275 lbs) and fairly low body fat, but is it the result of winning the genetics lottery or because of PEDs? With the sophistication of modern doping techniques, it’s pretty hard to say for sure. All we know is that you can’t spot a PED cheater by just looking at them. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/64 "2022-09-30T15:32:30Z")
In 1993 McGwire only played in 27 games. In 1994 only 47. > **[Mark McGwire Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More |...](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mcgwima01.shtml)** > > Check out the latest Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More of Mark McGwire. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, bats, throws, school and more on Baseball-reference.com ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/65 "2022-09-30T15:34:49Z")
The doping, and the cloaking, those techniques will only get better. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/66 "2022-09-30T15:42:05Z")
Sorry - I didn’t mean to suggest McGwire was on a HOF trajectory. He probably would have come back in 1995 to start hitting 35-40 a year, and still ended his career around 2001 as injuries started piling up. Good to great career, gone on to sell diet supplement and male enhancement pills alongside Frank Thomas. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/67 "2022-09-30T15:55:39Z")
Cool. And you make another good point, let’s enjoy Aaron Judge’s remaining season and hope for 62, 63, 64… (But not 73 or 74!) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/68 "2022-09-30T16:05:41Z")
FWIW: Maris hit his 61 in his _last_ 151 games. If you are going to draw arbitrary lines around a season doing it that way isn’t any less valid than looking at a player’s 1st X games in a season. [Yes know all about Ford Frick and the mythical asterisk] ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/69 "2022-09-30T16:13:32Z")
I would also. The problem now is the unfairness that has occurred over time. Baseball players using uppers in the 60s weren’t breaking any laws, and maybe not even violating any rules of baseball. Same thing with early users of steroids. Should they be considered the same as athletes who did exactly the same thing a few years later that was illegal and in violation of the rules. Was it even unfair to use PEDs when they were legally provided and not in violation of the rules? Every baseball player could have popped a few greenies before the game if that wanted to before laws limiting their use changed. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/70 "2022-09-30T16:18:05Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > The problem now is the unfairness that has occurred over time. Agreed. Perhaps they could name this “the modern era” and have records separated? Then we can shunt the records of Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, etc over to the modern era and I would then be happy. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/71 "2022-09-30T16:20:58Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > And Nomad fried himself, blew himself up! Don’t be insensitive. He was emotionally ill due to his traumatic impact with the alien probe. 💓 ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/72 "2022-09-30T18:03:08Z")
xkcd has something about this. > **[Steroids](https://xkcd.com/1173/)** > > A human is a system for converting dust billions of years ago into dust billions of years from now via a roundabout process which involves checking email a lot. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/73 "2022-09-30T18:48:39Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Focus on what’s happening _now_ - today’s game is SO much fun! It really is, and I hate baseball. I’m a big New York sports guy, almost exclusively NFL but I also root for and will occasionally watch the Rangers\*. (Even saw them once at MSG.) I kind of root for and might even watch the Knicks if they ever didn’t suck, but it’s been decades. But baseball? I just can’t watch it. I get bored and antsy – it feels like waiting at a stoplight to me – and I also really don’t like being so ignorant of the rules and nuance. Not knowing anything about what I’m watching makes me feel unmoored, but I also have no interest in learning it. Like cricket. Back in 2000, a buddy of mine was bartending at a hole in the wall that I would go to after work pretty regularly, and one of the guys who worked there was a huge Mets fan. We were all sports fans in general, so that Subway series was a big deal to us. I managed to watch maybe three innings total of that entire World Series; I just can’t take it. Lifetime total of maybe five innings watched, tops. So in terms of offering the outsiders perspective, as a true non-baseball fan, I find this Aaron Judge story to be both compelling and super fun. \*Being a Rangers fan means that the Islanders are the only New York team I root against. They’re like the Eagles to me. (The Eagles being my most hated NFL team, even ahead of the Cowboys and Washington, largely because of the Reid / McNabb era.) ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/74 "2022-09-30T22:23:18Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > I refuse to recognize Chemical Man Barry Bonds as the all time home run king. Refuse all you want. But it is a fact. > [@Jasmine](#): > > What I really want is for MLB to throw out all records held by those 3 men. But those things happened. They’re in the statistical record. > [@Bullitt](#): > > All athletes are encouraged to cheat. “If you’re not cheating, you’re not trying” is a very common ethos in sports. > [@Bullitt](#): > > And, getting back to Judge, do people think he’s taking any kind of performance enhancers? I have no reason to believe he is. But if someone had a twenty homer lead a couple of decades ago, fans would be certain he was juicing. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/75 "2022-09-30T22:31:33Z")
Baseball has a lot of records that purists should demand have asterisks. MLB regulations require that [any park constructed after 1958 have a minimum distance of 325 feet down the foul lines and 400 feet to dead center field.](https://www.mlb.com/glossary/rules/field-dimensions). Should Bobby Thomson’s “Miracle at Coogan’s Bluff” home run that won the 1951 pennant for the Giants be marked with an asterisk because even the most generous estimates had it traveling less than that? Going back even further, in 1929 the Tigers hit eight home runs to right field in four games against the St. Louis Browns. The Browns responded by putting up a 21’ fence above the right field wall that stayed there until the Cardinals built a new stadium in 1966. Should all the home runs hit to right field before 1929 come with an asterisk, or should the hitting records after 1929 come with an asterisk saying the owners cheated. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/76 "2022-09-30T23:06:17Z")
I don’t watch baseball, but I have a question: So…they got rid of the steroids, then? The players have shrunk back to normal human size like they were before? How did they do this? Extensive testing? I’m impressed if they cracked down on it. I hated seeing guys who looked normal(Bonds, McGwire, etc.) all the sudden showing up with upper bodies that were gigantic. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/77 "2022-09-30T23:08:30Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > How did they do this? Extensive testing? Regular testing. During the steroid era there was no testing at all. That’s why it was the steroid era. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/78 "2022-09-30T23:18:59Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Regular testing. During the steroid era there was no testing at all. That’s why it was the steroid era. Weird that this happened as late at the late 1990’s and early 2000’s. I thought most sports got rid of all that well before that. Well, tried to. Ben Johnson got caught at the 1988 Olympics, for comparison. Cycling was testing the entire time Lance Armstrong was cheating his way to victory, but at least he evaded the cheating instead of there being no cheating. Was baseball just encouraging cheating by choosing to ignore it? Are the guys in baseball today totally clean or are there workarounds? Obviously not as good since homeruns have come way down. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/79 "2022-09-30T23:27:59Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > I thought most sports got rid of all that well before that. Well, tried to. Football had been putting just the tiniest of fig leafs on their PED penalties for decades. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/80 "2022-09-30T23:29:28Z")
Speaking of, did they ever come up with a test for HGH? I remember that being a big thing in the 2000s when there was no way to test for it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453.md?page=5)