# An asterisk for Aaron Judge? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** baseball-mlb\ **Created:** [September 29, 2022, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453 "2022-09-29T13:42:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/81 "2022-09-30T23:33:01Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Was baseball just encouraging cheating by choosing to ignore it? > > Are the guys in baseball today totally clean or are there workarounds? Obviously not as good since homeruns have come way down. Strong players union and tradition. MLB didn’t test and doesn’t like to change, so they continued not testing until it became an existential crisis. There are likely runarounds to testing, so who knows? But also, homeruns aren’t really down. The year with the most HRs across MLB was 2019. The 2nd highest in 2017 and 3rd highest in 2021. That’s spread out over a lot of players and a lot of that is also the new emphasis on launch angle plus any changes to the ball, pitching, and I don’t know how much else. It’s difficult and maybe impossible to separate out the effect of PEDs from other changes. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/82 "2022-09-30T23:38:20Z")
As a tennis fan, I’ve wondered how they are managing to keep tennis players playing longer. Federer just retired at age 41 and Nadal and Djokovic are now past a common retirement age for players and are both going pretty strong. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2022, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/83 "2022-10-01T00:08:49Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Strong players union and tradition. MLB didn’t test and doesn’t like to change, so they continued not testing until it became an existential crisis. And, in addition… After the 1994-95 players’ strike, which wiped out several months of baseball, including the 1994 World Series, attendance and fan interest dropped significantly. But, then, after Cal Ripken’s pursuit of the consecutive-games streak in 1995 helped to rekindle some interest, the home run race between Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa in 1998 really helped baseball recover fan interest and popularity. It was widely suspected, even at that time, that McGwire and Sosa (along with Barry Bonds in the years that followed, and many other players) were using PEDs, and I have to believe that MLB and the teams knew it, but they were liking the results. So, there was no testing, and a lot of the PEDs which were being used weren’t even banned by MLB, though they were banned by many other sports organizations. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2022, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/84 "2022-10-01T00:17:46Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > As a tennis fan, I’ve wondered how they are managing to keep tennis players playing longer. Federer just retired at age 41 and Nadal and Djokovic are now past a common retirement age for players and are both going pretty strong. They might be using PEDs (I don’t known tennis, or those players, well enough to even speculate), but one shouldn’t discount just how much better sports medicine and training techniques are today, than they were just a few decades ago. It’s had a big impact in the NFL, too. 25 or so years ago, I read an article, in which it was demonstrated that, almost without exception, star NFL quarterbacks saw their stats decline precipitously once they hit age 38. That’s changed now: Tom Brady won the MVP at age 40, and won Super Bowls at age 41 and 43; the league’s reigning MVP, Aaron Rodgers, won it at age 39; Drew Brees was a highly effective quarterback until he retired at age 41, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2022, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/85 "2022-10-01T01:31:05Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > As a tennis fan, I’ve wondered how they are managing to keep tennis players playing longer. Federer just retired at age 41 and Nadal and Djokovic are now past a common retirement age for players and are both going pretty strong. An excellent point! Or how about Venus Williams? She has a large, muscular build. If the boys are juicing, they’re being very smart about it and not bulking up and being so overly obvious. Can you imagine…? [![](https://i.imgur.com/CL29hIf.jpeg) ](https://i.imgur.com/CL29hIf.jpeg) - [![](https://i.imgur.com/0foUON7.jpeg) ](https://i.imgur.com/0foUON7.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2022, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/86 "2022-10-01T02:09:26Z")
RE: Bonds and PEDs. I read an article back when Bonds was still playing that made a compelling argument that Bonds secret wasn’t (just) PEDs, but an illegal (but grandfathered-in for him and a few others) elbow guard that ‘locked’ his arm into the perfect position for hitting the long ball. It guaranteed that his arm was in the same position every swing. Found it! > **[Barry Bonds’ HR Record Tainted by Elbow ‘Armor’?](https://insidesportsgeek.wordpress.com/2007/08/07/barry-bonds-hr-record-tainted-by-elbow-armor/)** > > How true is this? Could it be? Photo taken from SportsNet2.Wordpress.com edited by InsideSportsGEek By Michael Witte NEW YORK (Commentary) Beyond his alleged steroid use, Barry Bonds is guilty of t… ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2022, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/87 "2022-10-01T02:24:02Z")
It is suspicious. This claim is maintained by only one person from a publication whose website returns a lot of errors. The claim [Is refuted by the man who built Bonds: elbow guard.](https://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/article/6557/barry-bonds-brace-orthotic-verisimilitude/) ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2022, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/88 "2022-10-01T02:31:54Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > Should Bobby Thomson’s “Miracle at Coogan’s Bluff” home run that won the 1951 pennant for the Giants be marked with an asterisk because even the most generous estimates had it traveling less than that? Or that the Giants were illegally stealing signs? > **[‘51 GIANTS COME CLEAN – ADMIT TO SIGN-STEALING SCHEME](https://nypost.com/2002/07/29/51-giants-come-clean-admit-to-sign-stealing-scheme/)** > > SAN FRANCISCO -In a conspiracy that’s been unraveling for five decades, members of the 1951 New York Giants are past any confessions or apologies. With little defensiveness or remorse, those … ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2022, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/89 "2022-10-01T02:39:29Z")
@Zakalwe, @TriPolar, thanks for those articles. I never heard the assertion that Bonds‘ brace gave him any competitive advantage, and the second article debunks it pretty well. Not to mention the point that Griffey Jr and Andruw Jones both look very different late in their careers than when they did at the beginning. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2022, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/90 "2022-10-01T02:55:02Z")
In that write-up, there is nothing about the mechanical advantage aspect other than a throw-away line about not restricting movement (in which case, what was the locking tab at extension there for?). Unfortunately the link to the interview itself where he “broke down each of the assertions and provided the facts of the brace he has made for more than 15 years.” Note that it doesn’t say he refuted them, just “broke them down” and “provided the facts”. He does mention that Bonds’ arm size didn’t change which would tend to indicate that is less likely that Bonds was taking anabolic steroids. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2022, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/91 "2022-10-01T02:58:23Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > He does mention that Bonds’ arm size didn’t change which would tend to indicate that is less likely that Bonds was taking anabolic steroids. I understand that, but photographic evidence suggests otherwise. [![](https://fanbuzz.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2020/05/barry-bonds-before-and-after.png) ](https://fanbuzz.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2020/05/barry-bonds-before-and-after.png) ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2022, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/92 "2022-10-01T03:20:55Z")
I just tried the mp3 link and didn’t get anywhere either. I don’t know what the truth is here but the situation with arm guards seemed overstated and the actual details of it’s construction aren’t there to evaluate. A device that restricts arm movement in particular ways can be an advantage but maybe not for everyone. Just as many people might find it detrimental to their hitting ability. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2022, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/93 "2022-10-01T03:28:34Z")
The bits of exposed arm held in different positions in those photos look the same to me. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2022, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/94 "2022-10-01T06:20:55Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > > [@Zakalwe](#): > > > > He does mention that Bonds’ arm size didn’t change which would tend to indicate that is less likely that Bonds was taking anabolic steroids. > > I understand that, but photographic evidence suggests otherwise. > > [https://fanbuzz.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2020/05/barry-bonds-before-and-after.png](https://fanbuzz.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2020/05/barry-bonds-before-and-after.png) I’m not saying I think Bonds didn’t take steroids. I absolutely think he took steroids. But just looking at those photos wouldn’t make me automatically think steroids. In the 15 years after high school I put on 50 lbs of mostly muscle without touching one steroid. Someone working hard at gaining size and strength naturally could easily make that kind of transition over time. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2022, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/95 "2022-10-01T06:22:55Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Speaking of, did they ever come up with a test for HGH? Here is a 2013 article talking about how MLB had started HGH testing the previous year. So they’ve been doing it for a decade. > **[monumental sports network](https://www.monumentalsportsnetwork.com/washington/mlb-expand-blood-testing-hgh)** ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2022, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/96 "2022-10-01T06:28:45Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > But just looking at those photos wouldn’t make me automatically think steroids. In the 15 years after high school I put on 50 lbs of mostly muscle without touching one steroid. Someone working hard at gaining size and strength naturally could easily make that kind of transition over time. Fair enough. On the other hand, there are also reports from eyewitnesses that Bonds’ hat size increased (from a Giants clubhouse attendant), and that his feet got bigger (from a Nike employee). Simply working hard at gaining size and strength, as an adult, through physical training alone, isn’t likely to do those things. > **[Bonds testimony includes growing hat, shoe size](https://www.espn.com/mlb/news/story?id=6190981)** > > A federal judge will allow the testimony of former baseball players and their relationship with Barry Bonds' former personal trainer during the slugger's perjury trial. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2022, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/97 "2022-10-02T17:00:46Z")
Depends on how much bigger those feet got. When I was in my 20s, I wore a size 11 shoe. I’ve been a 12 for ages now, and I may be moving up from there soon. I don’t follow baseball much anymore, so I don’t know what the overall coverage has been like, but the few pieces I’ve read in mainstream media about Judge’s pursuit of Maris have framed it exactly that way. McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds didn’t even get mentioned, not even to dis them. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2022, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/98 "2022-10-02T17:06:54Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Depends on how much bigger those feet got. When I was in my 20s, I wore a size 11 shoe. I’ve been a 12 for ages now, and I may be moving up from there soon. Allegedly, he went from a 10 1/2 to a 13, and that was apparently all in his 30s. > **[Bonds' growth suspect](https://www.deseret.com/2007/3/5/20005512/bonds-growth-suspect)** > > Maybee Barry Bonds can argue that weightlifting, not drugs, accounted for his weird, middle-aged home-run barrage and freaky body makeover, as he has maintained. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2022, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/99 "2022-10-02T17:07:33Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Allegedly, he went from a 10 1/2 to a 13, and that was apparently all in his 30s. Holy shit! ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2022, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453/100 "2022-10-02T19:47:16Z")
Yeah that is significant. I wasn’t aware of that growth. Holy Shit is right! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-asterisk-for-aaron-judge/972453.md?page=6)