# An embarrassing grammar question. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 16, 2005, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-embarrassing-grammar-question/284950 "2005-01-16T01:38:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-embarrassing-grammar-question/284950/1 "2005-01-16T01:38:48Z")
If you end a sentence with a quotation, do you put the period inside or outside the quotation? (i.e. I don’t like such “things.” or I don’t like such “things”.) I’ve honestly seen it both ways in print. From an aesthetic point of view, it doesn’t pretty either way and I’m confused as which one is correct. Also, is the same with parathesis? What about a quote within a parathesis? - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-embarrassing-grammar-question/284950/2 "2005-01-16T01:39:49Z")
Doh, that should be parenthesis. :smack: - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-embarrassing-grammar-question/284950/3 "2005-01-16T01:42:53Z")
Periods go inside the closing quote. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-embarrassing-grammar-question/284950/4 "2005-01-16T01:43:10Z")
It’s a matter of style. The American style, which is far more aesthetically pleasing, is to place periods and commas on the inside. The British style, followed in some Commonwealth countries but not others, puts them on the outside. An exception is when you’re quoting things where punctuation could cause confusion, such as in technical manuals or whatnot. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-embarrassing-grammar-question/284950/5 "2005-01-16T01:45:45Z")
Whew! Last question! If people with this polymorphism are highly resistant to HIV-1, why can’t scientist purposely “knockout” this gene in those infected with HIV-1? I work in a lab where we use (well, I don’t, I’m more of the guy who autoclaves stuff) “knockout” mice that lack certain receptors. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Jinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-embarrassing-grammar-question/284950/6 "2005-01-16T01:46:55Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > Periods go inside the closing quote. This is correct, except there is one case where the period belongs outside the quote, and I forget when this is. I will try to hunt down this case in my books on punctuation…unless some other Doper knows this rule… - Jinx ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-embarrassing-grammar-question/284950/7 "2005-01-16T01:47:05Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Whew! Last question! > > If people with this polymorphism are highly resistant to HIV-1, why can’t scientist purposely “knockout” this gene in those infected with HIV-1? I work in a lab where we use (well, I don’t, I’m more of the guy who autoclaves stuff) “knockout” mice that lack certain receptors. > > - Honesty Doh, ignore this, I meant to make a new thread. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-embarrassing-grammar-question/284950/8 "2005-01-16T01:48:10Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > It’s a matter of style. The American style, which is far more aesthetically pleasing, is to place periods and commas on the inside. The British style, followed in some Commonwealth countries but not others, puts them on the outside. > > An exception is when you’re quoting things where punctuation could cause confusion, such as in technical manuals or whatnot. Thank you! - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-embarrassing-grammar-question/284950/9 "2005-01-16T01:48:10Z")
If the quotation is a sentence within itself, then it can have its own full stop. But in that situation, you’ll be leading into the quotation by a colon or similar: “This could be a sentence quoted from elsewhere.” In your example, the punctuation is not part of the quotation, so it goes “outside”. On preview: **friedo** flags up the international differences. ‘Aesthetically pleasing’ is subjective - I hate punctuation inside quotation marks on a purely typographical basis, because it leaves a nasty chunk of blank space where there needn’t be any. And I think the ‘could cause confusion’ caveat covers any case where you’re adding editorial punctuation within quotation marks. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-embarrassing-grammar-question/284950/10 "2005-01-16T01:50:58Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > If the quotation is a sentence within itself, then it can have its own full stop. But in that situation, you’ll be leading into the quotation by a colon or similar: “This could be a sentence quoted from elsewhere.” In your example, the punctuation is not part of the quotation, so it goes “outside”. > > On preview: **friedo** flags up the international differences. ‘Aesthetically pleasing’ is subjective - I hate punctuation inside quotation marks on a purely typographical basis, because it leaves a nasty chunk of blank space where there needn’t be any. And I think the ‘could cause confusion’ caveat covers any case where you’re adding editorial punctuation within quotation marks. Wait a second. I’m confused now. So if you’re quoting someone, it goes inside. If it is not apart of a quotation, then it goes outside? Which one is correct here: I didn’t find the movie _Darkness_ all that “dark.” or I didn’t find the movie _Darkness_ all that “dark”. Which one is right? - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-embarrassing-grammar-question/284950/11 "2005-01-16T01:56:09Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > I didn’t find the movie _Darkness_ all that “dark.” > > or > > I didn’t find the movie _Darkness_ all that “dark”. > > Which one is right? The latter. If the quotation can stand by itself as a meaningful sentence, then punctuation can be included (although preferably this should only be the original punctuation). If the quotation is a fragment, then it cannot be punctuated by itself, so any punctuation is part of the sentence as a whole and therefore goes outside of the quotation. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-embarrassing-grammar-question/284950/12 "2005-01-16T01:57:32Z")
In American usage, a period or comma used at the end of a quotation goes inside the closing quotation marks, whether or not it “belongs to” the quotation or to the sentence in which the quotation is embedded. A question mark or exclamation point closing a quotation goes inside when it is grammatically connected to the quotation, and outside when it is associated with the sentence in which the quotation is embedded. Examples: Did she sing, “I will always love you”? He asked, “Will you always love me?” **Gorilla Man** or somebody, does the latter conform to British usage as well? ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-embarrassing-grammar-question/284950/13 "2005-01-16T02:04:35Z")
[On preview, I see that some of my post is redundant with earlier posts, but I’ll go ahead and post it anyway.] The standard American style is for periods, commas, and semicolons to be placed inside the quotations marks, as in your first example. Other (larger) punctuation marks, such as exclamation points and question marks go inside if they’re part of the original quotation, and outside if they arent’t. I’ve heard that the reason for the distinction arises from the problems a small mark like a comma or period, sitting out by itself at the end of a line, could cause pressmen, back when type was set by hand. Perhaps, but I’m dubious. These days, many people argue that it is illogical to put a comma or period inside the quotes when it wasn’t in the original. I suspect that this argument has become more prevalent in the age of computers, when a misplaced comma or period, and what is inside and what is outside of quotation marks, can have a serious impact on the proper functioning of a program. But outside of writing code or technical manuals, this argument carries no weight, IMO. For me, it just looks bad. These marks usually cuddle nicely at the end of a word, and the eye doesn’t expect to see them hanging out all alone outside the quotation marks. It’s just ugly. Of course, depending on who or what you’re writing for, there may be established style rules. If you don’t have any imposed, find a set you like, and stick with them. British usage apparently differs from American, but I’ll refrain from attempting to speak authoritatively on this, not being British. (BTW, why is this an embarrassing question?) ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-embarrassing-grammar-question/284950/14 "2005-01-16T02:06:58Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Did she sing, “I will always love you”? > > He asked, “Will you always love me?” > > **Gorilla Man** or somebody, does the latter conform to British usage as well? Both conform perfectly - the first one is quoting something that definitely is _not_ a question (including the question-mark inside the quotation would make this less clear). The latter is quoting a complete sentence, including punctuation. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-embarrassing-grammar-question/284950/15 "2005-01-16T02:09:22Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > > [@Honesty](#): > > > > I didn’t find the movie Darkness all that “dark.” > > > > or > > > > I didn’t find the movie Darkness all that “dark”. > > > > Which one is right? > > The latter. If the quotation can stand by itself as a meaningful sentence, then punctuation can be included (although preferably this should only be the original punctuation). If the quotation is a fragment, then it cannot be punctuated by itself, so any punctuation is part of the sentence as a whole and therefore goes outside of the quotation. The former is correct on _our_ side of the Atlantic, **Honesty**. Inside the quotes. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-embarrassing-grammar-question/284950/16 "2005-01-16T02:21:58Z")
I’ll avoid quoting **commasense** ’s long post in order to address one minor issue: It’s my impression that on the rare occasions when a semicolon is used immediately following a quotation, it should be placed **after** the closing quotation mark. But in 99% of such cases, it’s probably far better style to close the sentence with a period and start the other half of the sentence that would follow the semicolon as a fresh sentence. (The other occasion when a semicolon following a quotation might be appropriate, when quotations in series call for semicolons to divide them, might better be expressed in list form for most forms of writing.) ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-embarrassing-grammar-question/284950/17 "2005-01-16T02:31:46Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > I’ll avoid quoting **commasense** ’s long post in order to address one minor issue: It’s my impression that on the rare occasions when a semicolon is used immediately following a quotation, it should be placed **after** the closing quotation mark. But in 99% of such cases, it’s probably far better style to close the sentence with a period and start the other half of the sentence that would follow the semicolon as a fresh sentence. (The other occasion when a semicolon following a quotation might be appropriate, when quotations in series call for semicolons to divide them, might better be expressed in list form for most forms of writing.) Yeah, now that you mention it, I can’t think of a good example where putting a semicolon inside the quotes would make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Czechmate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5e925/32.png) [@Czechmate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czechmate)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-embarrassing-grammar-question/284950/18 "2005-01-16T02:32:33Z")
For a particularly nitpicky view on British grammar, I highly recommend the book, “Eats, Shoots and Leaves” by Lynne Truss. There are some Americanizations stated in the preface, but the majority of it is a punctuation stickler’s dream. ~Czech ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-embarrassing-grammar-question/284950/19 "2005-01-16T02:46:17Z")
Since the sentence provided is highly casual, does any of this matter? ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-embarrassing-grammar-question/284950/20 "2005-01-16T03:07:30Z")
> [@ouryL](#): > > Since the sentence provided is highly casual, does any of this matter? Heathen! Punctuation _always_ matters! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-embarrassing-grammar-question/284950.md?page=2)