# "An End To the Ban on Gun-Violence Studies"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 13, 2013, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-end-to-the-ban-on-gun-violence-studies/647032 "2013-01-13T04:20:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-end-to-the-ban-on-gun-violence-studies/647032/41 "2013-01-16T14:52:17Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And if they weren’t frightened of the motherfucking NRA scumbags. If you want to call people “motherfucking scumbags,” do it in the Pit. Especially if it’s a vaguely-defined group of people that could be NRA leaders or millions of people in an organization. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Yeah, sure, like having the government do it. You know, like what the gun scum are blocking. See above. Strong opinions are welcome, but the vitriol has to be coupled to something that contributes to the debate. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-end-to-the-ban-on-gun-violence-studies/647032/42 "2013-01-16T15:29:20Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Perhaps we can agree this is one of those areas where “we just need to enforce the laws which are already on the books” is nonsense, then? I don’t follow. I do want existing laws enforced. In the case of the ones that block the CDC from conducting research into guns, that’s because I don’t believe they’ll do so without letting their personal biases creep into it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-end-to-the-ban-on-gun-violence-studies/647032/43 "2013-01-16T15:31:28Z")
Are you similarly worried about their personal biases about infectious disease control, vaccination, water fluoridation and the lead content of paint? ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-end-to-the-ban-on-gun-violence-studies/647032/44 "2013-01-16T15:54:29Z")
The NRA has always tried to block studies on gun violence and has a history of being successful, whether it is blocking universities that receive government money from studying gun violence, or makins sure that the recent Affordable Care Act had language in it that forbade doctors from gathering statistics on gun violence. I didn’t realize that these attempts by the NRA to block the collection of data wasn’t common knowledge and the fact that it is not, is part of the reason that the NRA is not more reviled than it is. [http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/01/executive-order-nra-should-fear-most/61004/](http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/01/executive-order-nra-should-fear-most/61004/) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-end-to-the-ban-on-gun-violence-studies/647032/45 "2013-01-16T16:02:37Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > You mean, the message that Obama wants to take away assault weapons from their legal owners? That message? How about the message that he wants to do the same to “high capacity” magazines as well. The message that there is anything **wrong** with any of that. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-end-to-the-ban-on-gun-violence-studies/647032/46 "2013-01-16T16:09:26Z")
The message, also, that [there’s something wrong even with government trying to reduce the number of firearms in circulation by **buying** them.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=678335) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-end-to-the-ban-on-gun-violence-studies/647032/47 "2013-01-16T16:24:05Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > or makins sure that the recent Affordable Care Act had language in it that forbade doctors from gathering statistics on gun violence. So even if a billionaire philanthropist wanted to fund such a study, the data just wouldn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-end-to-the-ban-on-gun-violence-studies/647032/48 "2013-01-16T16:37:28Z")
The deletion of data was part of the COMPROMISE that that NRA entered into when they backed the instant background check system. Everyone likes to ask gun owners to compromise. We did, we backed the instant check system - we just said that there would be no permanent government record. See, we didn’t want a list that could be used for future banning / confiscation purposes. We compromised. Sorry if that got in the way of research. There is still research being done. Kellerman is at Rand nowadays. I know a couple of criminologists who study gun violence at the university level. The NRA had no problem with Lott doing research, or Kleck after all. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-end-to-the-ban-on-gun-violence-studies/647032/49 "2013-01-16T16:45:45Z")
Deletion of background check information is one thing. Deletion of data regarding guns actually _used_ in crimes is a totally unrelated issue. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-end-to-the-ban-on-gun-violence-studies/647032/50 "2013-01-16T16:49:50Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Gun- **violence,** not gun-ownership. And [the Centers for Disease Control](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centers_for_Disease_Control_and_Prevention) actually does have a much broader remit/brief/scope than the name would seem to imply. > > Studying gun-violence falls well within that. And? When Congress tells you not to do, you don’t do it. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-end-to-the-ban-on-gun-violence-studies/647032/51 "2013-01-16T16:51:44Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Deletion of background check information is one thing. Deletion of data regarding guns actually _used_ in crimes is a totally unrelated issue. Agreed. I am a gunowner (and NRA member) who welcomes good research. The main problem is the bias among most social sciences researchers out there (and these folks are my friends). However, as long as the data is made available to everyone, then it should be fine. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-end-to-the-ban-on-gun-violence-studies/647032/52 "2013-01-16T16:52:29Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Agreed. I am a gunowner (and NRA member) who welcomes good research. The main problem is the bias among most social sciences researchers out there (and these folks are my friends). However, as long as the data is made available to everyone, then it should be fine. Cite for this bias? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-end-to-the-ban-on-gun-violence-studies/647032/53 "2013-01-16T18:20:56Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > And? When Congress tells you not to do, you don’t do it. Of course not; the point of this thread is that Congress should not have, and should be funding such research. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-end-to-the-ban-on-gun-violence-studies/647032/54 "2013-01-16T18:55:10Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Cite for this bias? As I stated - based on my friends on the faculty. You can also find plenty of cites for party registration by department where it is overwhelmingly Democratic Party registration. Here is the Washington Post discussing a study: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8427-2005Mar28.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8427-2005Mar28.html) > [@](#): > > By their own description, 72 percent of those teaching at American universities and colleges are liberal and 15 percent are conservative, says the study being published this week. The imbalance is almost as striking in partisan terms, with 50 percent of the faculty members surveyed identifying themselves as Democrats and 11 percent as Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-end-to-the-ban-on-gun-violence-studies/647032/55 "2013-01-16T19:01:54Z")
If that’s a consideration, and that logic is valid, Congress shouldn’t be funding _any_ research. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-end-to-the-ban-on-gun-violence-studies/647032/56 "2013-01-16T19:24:17Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > If that’s a consideration, and that logic is valid, Congress shouldn’t be funding _any_ research. I already said I supported more research, but we should always keep a skeptic’s perspective on research. It is easy to have your hypothesis influenced by your own bias, perspective, history, etc. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-end-to-the-ban-on-gun-violence-studies/647032/57 "2013-01-16T19:38:16Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > As I stated - based on my friends on the faculty. You can also find plenty of cites for party registration by department where it is overwhelmingly Democratic Party registration. > > Here is the Washington Post discussing a study: > > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8427-2005Mar28.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8427-2005Mar28.html) Party affiliation is not the same thing as bias in research. I’m looking for something that proves bias in research outputs. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-end-to-the-ban-on-gun-violence-studies/647032/58 "2013-01-16T19:57:06Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Party affiliation is not the same thing as bias in research. I’m looking for something that proves bias in research outputs. Agreed. You’ll need to show that there is a deliberate bias; one that moves researches to fudge numbers, ignore evidence, or otherwise compromise their objectivity. Just because the results lead to political reality you don’t care for does not mean that the researches did bad science; it just means you don’t like the answer. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-end-to-the-ban-on-gun-violence-studies/647032/59 "2013-01-16T20:55:28Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > Agreed. You’ll need to show that there is a deliberate bias; one that moves researches to fudge numbers, ignore evidence, or otherwise compromise their objectivity. Just because the results lead to political reality you don’t care for does not mean that the researches did bad science; it just means you don’t like the answer. You mean like Michael Bellesiles book on guns in America, where his biased scholarship eventually cost him his job? > **[Arming America](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arming_America)** > > Arming America: The Origins of a National Gun Culture is a discredited 2000 book by historian Michael A. Bellesiles about American gun culture, an expansion of a 1996 article he published in the Journal of American History. Bellesiles, then a professor at Emory University, used research missing context to argue that during the early period of US history, guns were uncommon during peacetime and that a culture of gun ownership did not arise until the mid-nineteenth century. > Although the book was a... His book, his ability to get it past many people because his so-called results fit their worldview, is a pretty good example of what can happen when people seek a particular answer. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-end-to-the-ban-on-gun-violence-studies/647032/60 "2013-01-16T21:04:11Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > You mean like Michael Bellesiles book on guns in America, where his biased scholarship eventually cost him his job? > > [Arming America - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arming_America) > > His book, his ability to get it past many people because his so-called results fit their worldview, is a pretty good example of what can happen when people seek a particular answer. Your example is its own evidence. People tested his claims, found them to be dubious and he was rejected. That is how science is done. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-end-to-the-ban-on-gun-violence-studies/647032.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-end-to-the-ban-on-gun-violence-studies/647032.md?page=4)