# An English Language Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 7, 2019, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-english-language-question/827338 "2019-01-07T08:35:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-english-language-question/827338/22 "2019-01-08T17:18:41Z")
You can have an elided predicate after"than", but not "before’. So: I am better at chess than he [is at chess]. This is because “than” is not a preposition so it’s not the object. However, if the sentence is: He loves his wife more than her. It’s “her” because we have elided "He loves his wife more than [he loves] her. This is the rule people are mis-applying, not the more common hyper-correction of object case. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-english-language-question/827338/23 "2019-01-08T18:26:26Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I agree with this. ‘Betty and Andy are going to Paris before Carol and I go’ is also correct and, **perhaps, slightly** clearer. > [added emphasis] > [@WernhamHogg](#): > > What is unclear about the “and me” construction that is clarified by “and I [go]”? There is an idiomatic usage of ‘before’ as in ‘to go before an audience.’ A quick Google produces, as a 1st hit for proof of that idiom, that ‘Went before the court again’ has been used as a clue for RETRIED in a crossword puzzle! :eek: Suppose that Betty and Andy perform a little walk towards their departure gate at the airport, before friends, to celebrate their trip to the City of Lights. Moreover, Carol and I are among the friends in the audience for this little celebration. ‘What are you doing here at the airport?’ an acquaintance asks as he passes by. ‘Betty and Andy are going to Paris before Carol and me.’ I answer. Far-fetched? I won’t argue against that label. But I think other related scenarios could be devised, and I did write “_perhaps, slightly_ clearer.” ---
**Author:** ![WernhamHogg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a587f6/32.png) [@WernhamHogg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WernhamHogg)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-english-language-question/827338/24 "2019-01-08T19:07:55Z")
You can contrive a labored misreading for almost any sentence, including this one. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-english-language-question/827338/25 "2019-01-09T08:57:46Z")
> [@WernhamHogg](#): > > You can contrive a labored misreading for almost any sentence, including this one. In context, yours merely begs the sequitur! I have demonstrated that the ‘Carol and I go’ removes an ambiguity not present in ‘Carol and me.’ Does it add a _new_ ambiguity? I don’t think so. Kindly provide the meanings of these sentences: Sally appeared before the other judges and me. Sally appeared before the other judges and I. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-english-language-question/827338/26 "2019-01-09T09:59:40Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > In context, yours merely begs the sequitur! I have demonstrated that the ‘Carol and I go’ removes an ambiguity not present in ‘Carol and me.’ Does it add a _new_ ambiguity? I don’t think so. > > Kindly provide the meanings of these sentences: > Sally appeared before the other judges and me. > Sally appeared before the other judges and I. _Sally appeared before the other judges and I._ begs the question - I what? I fainted? I didn’t? The sentence is ambiguous anyway because we don’t know if it means that Sally was in the dock, or that she turned up first. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-english-language-question/827338/27 "2019-01-09T12:14:31Z")
To forestall any accusation that my latest submission is “contrived”, let me show that it comes from a real-world event: The annual ‘Ambiguous Sentence Couplet’ competition was held this year in Karnecky Hall. Sally Sillyjism was one of seven judges. Because of low participation the judges were encouraged to submit their own Ambiguous Sentence Couplets as well, and in fact all seven judges did so! Of course, only the other six judges voted on a given judge’s submission. (I was a contestant, but not a judge; however I was allowed to stand next to the judges since I was taking a video of the event. You’ll be able to see it in the important new documentary called `Culture of Irony.’) Anyway, Sally appeared before the other judges and me to recite her contest entry. She was one of the first to appear; she appeared before any of the other judges or I appeared. Mine was the last submission presented. My submission to the ‘Ambiguous Sentence Couplet’ competition was intended as an Ode to Sally’s performance: Sally appeared before the other judges and me. And Sally appeared before the other judges and I. My entry didn’t win any prize except for the T-shirt given to all participants, but more importantly for me, Sally just smirked while I was reciting this Ode. I thought my entry deserved better, but someone showed me the problem – my entry was too similar to one from three years earlier: Trixie came before the camera-man and me. Trixie came before the camera-man and I. ---
**Author:** ![WernhamHogg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a587f6/32.png) [@WernhamHogg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WernhamHogg)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-english-language-question/827338/28 "2019-01-09T13:03:14Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > To forestall any accusation that my latest submission is “contrived”, let me show that it comes from a real-world event: > > The annual ‘Ambiguous Sentence Couplet’ competition was held this year in Karnecky Hall. Sally Sillyjism was one of seven judges. Because of low participation the judges were encouraged to submit their own Ambiguous Sentence Couplets as well, and in fact all seven judges did so! Of course, only the other six judges voted on a given judge’s submission. (I was a contestant, but not a judge; however I was allowed to stand next to the judges since I was taking a video of the event. You’ll be able to see it in the important new documentary called `Culture of Irony.') > > Anyway, Sally appeared before the other judges and me to recite her contest entry. She was one of the first to appear; she appeared before any of the other judges or I appeared. Mine was the last submission presented. My submission to the ‘Ambiguous Sentence Couplet’ competition was intended as an Ode to Sally’s performance: > Sally appeared before the other judges and me. > And > Sally appeared before the other judges and I. > My entry didn’t win any prize except for the T-shirt given to all participants, but more importantly for me, Sally just smirked while I was reciting this Ode. I thought my entry deserved better, but someone showed me the problem – my entry was too similar to one from three years earlier: > Trixie came before the camera-man and me. > Trixie came before the camera-man and I. So you give us a sentence that is “deliberately created rather than arising naturally or spontaneously” as evidence that is not contrived. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-english-language-question/827338/29 "2019-01-09T13:47:22Z")
> [@WernhamHogg](#): > > So … Clicking on ‘Find All Posts’ I see that four out of your seven most recent posts — three here and one in a BBQ Pit thread — have no purpose but to ridicule me or my views. In this thread your original complaint seemed to be that my _ **“perhaps, slightly clearer”** _ should have been _ **“but not in any way whatsoever conceivably clearer.”** _ Is there some particular reason you find me offensive? ---
**Author:** ![WernhamHogg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a587f6/32.png) [@WernhamHogg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WernhamHogg)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-english-language-question/827338/30 "2019-01-09T14:05:52Z")
I was discussing the question in the OP and all of my posts were germane to that topic, pointing out that some of the “ambiguity” of the example sentence was reaching and subsequently laughing at someone posting a sentence that is explicitly contrived for a contest as proof it’s not contrived (I think you just don’t know what the word means?). Don’t take it personally. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2019, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-english-language-question/827338/31 "2019-01-11T05:41:59Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > In this thread your original complaint seemed to be that my _ **“perhaps, slightly clearer”** _ should have been _ **“but not in any way whatsoever conceivably clearer.”** _ Im not **WernhamHogg** but even you admitted that your example is far fetched. No reasonable person is going to be confused by the sentence “Bob and Betty going to Paris before us.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-english-language-question/827338.md?page=1)