# An evolutionary idea: **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 3, 2003, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463 "2003-02-03T07:54:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/61 "2003-02-06T00:13:01Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **His4ever** _ > I believe I have heard somewhere the idea that God created through evolution, can’t remember where I heard it. You might have heard it from me. As a little girl, I remember understanding that two atoms of hydrogen and one of oxygen make water, but I wondered Who declared it should be so. The more I learn about the details of this world and how it has become what it is, the more I am amazed by the One Who created it. To me, setting up the complex chain of events that led to this world as we know it is far more marvelous than merely waving a magic wand, so to speak, and saying “Let there be [something]” Darwin was a Christian. On the _Beagle_’s voyage, he found remarkable examples of diversity, particularly in finches on the Galapagos Islands, if I recall. Evolution was his attempt to explain about how they came about, and the more time passes, the more evidence is found to support it. I’ve yet to hear of any reputable evidence outside of Christian scripture which supports Creationism. In the other thread, there’s a reference to moths in Manchester which demonstrate how different species can come about. As further evidence, look at all the different directions dogs have evolved in. While they’re technically all the same species, a chihuahua would have a hard time bearing a litter fathered by a great dane. Hawaii and Australia are other places where you can find plants and animals which fit unique niches. In Hawaii, because there weren’t many predators, birds nested on the ground rather than in trees. As a result, the introduction of rats and mongooses devastated the native bird population and I think some species became extinct. I’m hesitant to get into threads like this because I’m not a biologist or a paleontologist and there are others who are far better qualified to speak on this than I am. Still, when I see the traces of species branching out, shifting, and evolving, I am even more in awe of the Creator, just as I am awed by the intricacy of a DNA molecule or the wonders of space. The deeper I look, the greater my wonder becomes. With all due respect, I’d prefer not to trade that for Creationism. CJ ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/62 "2003-02-06T02:37:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tdn \* > \*\*Thanks for your honest and prompt answer. > > Can we take it a step further? If someone could convince you that God and evolution are not incompatible, would you at least entertain the idea that evolution might be based in fact? \*\* I will say, for the sake of argument, that it’s possible for God to have chosen evolution as one way for things to happen. I even remember back in junior high (?) science class attempting to reconcile the two in my mind because I believed in God, yet here they were teaching evolution. So I can agree that there can still be a God with evolution. However, something inside me just keeps telling me that it didn’t happen that way. (Very unscientific, I know, but not a problem for me). Could I be wrong about it, yes I suppose so. But I probably won’t change my belief on it, all I can say is it’s a possibility. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/63 "2003-02-06T03:22:12Z")
**Poly** , I should have been more clear in what i was saying. I was referring to the modern idea of _absolute_ inerrancy (i.e. that The Bible is literally true, word for word, in every particular, without any chance of falsehood, contradiction or error. While it has been traditional from Augustine on down to think of the Bible as being divinely inspired and spiritually true, There has traditionally always been at least some wiggle room for figurative interpretation, or allowance for error by the divinely guided but human agents of authorship. The modern American Christian fundamentalist movement of the last century or so has placed a new emphasis on Biblical perfection, an emphasis so central, in fact, that it is almost tantamount to a deification of scripture itself ( **Libertarian** seems to view it as virtual idolotry). ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/64 "2003-02-06T05:35:12Z")
> [@](#): > > that it is almost tantamount to a deification of scripture itself ( **Libertarian** seems to view it as virtual idolatry). As do I. No problem about your referring to absolute inerrancy – but I thought it fair to point out that that’s not where the doctrine started. (Ms. Goose considers herself a “fundamentalist” – but of the original variety, not bound to the necessity to assume that Pi equals three on the basis of the molten sea measurements or that the Sun stood still over Gibeon for several hours to enable Joshua to finish winning a battle.) ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/65 "2003-02-06T10:26:38Z")
I’d like to inject a note of caution here. A lot of you have heard me talk about my Fundamentalist Christian, turned Atheist turned Wiccan friends. When they were Fundamentalist Christians, they believed in Biblical inerrancy in the sense that there are no errors in the text, as I understand it. One of the things that led to them giving up on Christianity was they could not reconcile that belief with observable, factual phenomena. I don’t know what those phenomena were, exactly, but I think internal contradictions and the evidence for evolution were among them. These contradictions, by the way, are why I cannot become a literalist in that sense. With all due respect to those who are literalists, especially you, **His4Ever** , that’s why I consider this doctrine to be dangerous to faith. My friends, on realizing that not every jot and tittle of the Bible is literally true, began to wonder how much was true, and wound up leaving the faith. Excuse me. I think I’m continuing a hijack, but I just wanted to remind people of real life consequences. CJ ---
**Author:** ![Sock\_Munkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Sock\_Munkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sock_Munkey)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/66 "2003-02-06T12:00:19Z")
I have to give cjhoworth extra points for eloquence. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/67 "2003-02-06T12:29:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cjhoworth \* > \*\* With all due respect to those who are literalists, especially you, **His4Ever** , that’s why I consider this doctrine to be dangerous to faith. My friends, on realizing that not every jot and tittle of the Bible is literally true, began to wonder how much was true, and wound up leaving the faith. \*\* That’s a good point. It is also hard to convice non-Christians of the Truth of the bible, if you are a literalist. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/68 "2003-02-06T13:55:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*However, something inside me just keeps telling me that it didn’t happen that way. (Very unscientific, I know, but not a problem for me). Could I be wrong about it, yes I suppose so. But I probably won’t change my belief on it, all I can say is it’s a possibility. \*\* OK. So once again, I ask: It’s been proven that evolution works. It’s been proven that evolution and God can coexist. Is evolution still a threat to you, and if so, why? ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/69 "2003-02-06T14:55:53Z")
His4ever, Think about the Ark.(Noah’s) It was not humanly possible or any possible for all the species to fit. So, if you believe it literally happened, then the animals evolved after they got out (except the unicorn). So you do beleive in evolution.?! ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/70 "2003-02-06T15:05:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*His4ever, > Think about the Ark.(Noah’s) > > It was not humanly possible or any possible for all the species to fit. > So, if you believe it literally happened, then the animals evolved after they got out (except the unicorn). > > So you do beleive in evolution.?! \*\* A quick hijack-is the “Unicorn” actually mentioned as part of Noah’s Ark? ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/71 "2003-02-06T15:09:18Z")
😉 I was being funny. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/72 "2003-02-06T15:13:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*😉 > > I was being funny. \*\* I had a sneaking suspicion you were, but I had remembered hearing about “Unicorns” missing the Ark since I was little-so I just wanted to make sure. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/73 "2003-02-06T15:23:52Z")
> [@](#): > > _cjhoworth_ > With all due respect to those who are literalists, especially you, His4Ever, that’s why I consider this doctrine to be dangerous to faith. My friends, on realizing that not every jot and tittle of the Bible is literally true, began to wonder how much was true, and wound up leaving the faith. This is the problem with getting hung up on the literal truth of myth. A myth is a story which tells the truth, but which often does so allegorically. It’s not the details of the story which are important, it’s the lesson or the message of the story. Jesus taught in parables, and I don’t think that most people feel that his parables need to be taked literally in order to learn from them. It is not important, for instance, whether the Good Samaritan was a real or a rhetorical person. The message of the parable is the same. If we got sidetracked on trying to prove that the Samaritan really existed and engaged in debates about when and where the events of the parable occurred, then we would completlely be _missing the point_ of the story. I’ve sometimes used the analogy of climbing up the signpost rather than going where it points to describe the futility of mythical literalism (or, as Bruce Lee said in _Enter the Dragon_, if someone points at the moon, don’t look at their finger). I think that if someone is raised with the idea that Biblical literalism is essential to their faith, then they will often have a crisis of faith when they discover that absolute inerrancy is simply not reconcilable with common sense. They conclude that the Bible is “wrong,” therefore their faith must be wrong. This is because they have been given the wrong idea about what mythological _truth_ is. I think that an initial phase of atheism or agnosticism is common at this point because that’s what they’ve always seen the choice as, Christianity or nothing. Their essential longing for faith, though, will lead them to alternatives like Neo-Paganism (which is attractive to college-age kids in that it seems to have a coolness and mystique, a sort of rebellious _style_ which is not found in more traditional religions) or Eastern traditions like Zen, which have a mystique and coolness of their own. The most important thing, it seems, is that their new chosen practice must be as unlike Christianity as possible. It’s funny, though. When you really examine these other religions, when ou get past the metaphors and the trappings and the mythology, you get the same truth as Christianity. Love thy neighbor. Virtually every world religion has some version of the Golden Rule and they usually emphasize that this is the one rule that really, really _counts_. I just can’t imagine a God who is sitting up in heaven taking notes on precisely how much faith each person has in Biblical literacy. I think he’d be more interested in what people are _learning_ from the Bible, and how they are applying it to their personal lives. I also think that, if God exists, he gave us our minds, our curiosity and our wonder. He gave us the ability to discover for ourselves how his creation was wrought. Scientific exploration does not diminish a belief in divine creation, it enhances it. The more we learn about the universe, the more staggering, the more jaw-dropping that creation becomes-- and there is always more to learn. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/74 "2003-02-06T16:42:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*His4ever, > Think about the Ark.(Noah’s) > > It was not humanly possible or any possible for all the species to fit.\*\* [literalist response] But it _was_ Godly possible! [/literalist response] ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/75 "2003-02-06T16:52:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*This is the problem with getting hung up on the literal truth of myth. A myth is a story which tells the truth, but which often does so allegorically. It’s not the details of the story which are important, it’s the lesson or the message of the story. Jesus taught in parables, and I don’t think that most people feel that his parables need to be taked literally in order to learn from them. It is not important, for instance, whether the Good Samaritan was a real or a rhetorical person. The message of the parable is the same. If we got sidetracked on trying to prove that the Samaritan really existed and engaged in debates about when and where the events of the parable occurred, then we would completlely be _missing the point_ of the story. > > I’ve sometimes used the analogy of climbing up the signpost rather than going where it points to describe the futility of mythical literalism (or, as Bruce Lee said in _Enter the Dragon_, if someone points at the moon, don’t look at their finger). I think that if someone is raised with the idea that Biblical literalism is essential to their faith, then they will often have a crisis of faith when they discover that absolute inerrancy is simply not reconcilable with common sense. They conclude that the Bible is “wrong,” therefore their faith must be wrong. This is because they have been given the wrong idea about what mythological _truth_ is. I think that an initial phase of atheism or agnosticism is common at this point because that’s what they’ve always seen the choice as, Christianity or nothing. Their essential longing for faith, though, will lead them to alternatives like Neo-Paganism (which is attractive to college-age kids in that it seems to have a coolness and mystique, a sort of rebellious _style_ which is not found in more traditional religions) or Eastern traditions like Zen, which have a mystique and coolness of their own. The most important thing, it seems, is that their new chosen practice must be as unlike Christianity as possible. > > It’s funny, though. When you really examine these other religions, when ou get past the metaphors and the trappings and the mythology, you get the same truth as Christianity. Love thy neighbor. Virtually every world religion has some version of the Golden Rule and they usually emphasize that this is the one rule that really, really _counts_. > > I just can’t imagine a God who is sitting up in heaven taking notes on precisely how much faith each person has in Biblical literacy. I think he’d be more interested in what people are _learning_ from the Bible, and how they are applying it to their personal lives. > > I also think that, if God exists, he gave us our minds, our curiosity and our wonder. He gave us the ability to discover for ourselves how his creation was wrought. Scientific exploration does not diminish a belief in divine creation, it enhances it. The more we learn about the universe, the more staggering, the more jaw-dropping that creation becomes-- and there is always more to learn. \*\* I agree, I think you said this pretty well. Personally I think there is something to almost every religion having a version of the “golden rule”. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/76 "2003-02-06T17:02:09Z")
How many animals _was_ it, by the way? > [@](#): > > **Genesis 6:19,20 > _19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive._** > [@](#): > > **Genesis 7: 1-3 > _1 The LORD then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. 2 Take with you seven [1] of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth._** How can both of these passages be true? ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/77 "2003-02-06T17:11:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*How can both of these passages be true? \*\* Maybe God was frusterated at Noah’s inability to master math?😃 ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/78 "2003-02-06T20:45:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Darwin’s Finch \* > \*\*[literalist response] > But it _was_ Godly possible! > [/literalist response] \*\* I guess you already answered for me. I don’t have a problem with it at all. I leave the details to God and don’t feel the need to analyze it to death to firgure out the whys, hows, and wherefores. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/79 "2003-02-06T20:49:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\* > > So you do beleive in evolution.?! \*\* No, I don’t believe in evolution. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/80 "2003-02-06T20:50:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*I will say, for the sake of argument, that it’s possible for God to have chosen evolution as one way for things to happen. \*\* From a practical perspective, let’s assume that God used evolution as a tool for forming life on Earth. Would he then take this process, which requires a fairly advanced understanding of science and biology to fully grasp, and try to teach it to some bronze age (or whatever) potential believers? No, it would seem against common sense to do so. They wouldn’t understand the process, and largely dismiss it. They’ll probably even find the entire work and message strange and ridiculous, and outright reject the whole thing. So, even if God did use evolution as a tool, it would be counterproductive to describe this process to “primitive” civilizations - he wants people to believe in Him and His word, and proposing some scary scientific mumbo jumbo is going to hurt more than it helps. So He uses an allegorical story that is understandable by the intended audience, making the message more important than the details. Or… if assuming He did use evolution as a tool, and all we know of His word is the Bible, how exactly would he convey that to us? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463.md?page=5)