# An evolutionary idea: **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 3, 2003, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463 "2003-02-03T07:54:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/81 "2003-02-06T20:54:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*No, I don’t believe in evolution. \*\* But do you accept it as how it happened _scientifically?_ ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/82 "2003-02-06T20:56:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tdn \* > \*\*OK. > > So once again, I ask: It’s been proven that evolution works. It’s been proven that evolution and God can coexist. Is evolution still a threat to you, and if so, why? \*\* I don’t know that it’s a threat to me, I just can’t be honest and say I believe it. Who’s to say that creation can’t work just as well as evolution? Who’s to say all the info on evolution is even being interpreted properly? Where are all the fossils of the transitional life forms? I just don’t buy it. Is it a threat to you that I believe God said “Let there be” and it was? Is God limited in your mind that He can’t create that way? I’ve believed in creation ever since I can remember and I’m not going to just start saying, “hmm, I guess I’ll believe in evolution now” because some scientists say that it’s so. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/83 "2003-02-06T21:50:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*I don’t know that it’s a threat to me, I just can’t be honest and say I believe it. Who’s to say that creation can’t work just as well as evolution? Who’s to say all the info on evolution is even being interpreted properly? Where are all the fossils of the transitional life forms? \*\* > > Well, there’s Archeopteryx, for an extremely well known example. For more reading and hundreds of others, got [http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html) > > \*\* I just don’t buy it. Is it a threat to you that I believe God said “Let there be” and it was? Is God limited in your mind that He can’t create that way? I’ve believed in creation ever since I can remember and I’m not going to just start saying, “hmm, I guess I’ll believe in evolution now” because some scientists say that it’s so. \*\* This is stunningly boneheaded, in light of all the revealed fact regarding evolution. God gave you a brain. I think he’d want you to use it. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/84 "2003-02-06T22:10:35Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **His4Everp** _ > Is it a threat to you that I believe God said “Let there be” and it was? In some ways it is. There are two sides to this. First of all, to some of us here, when you say you don’t believe in evolution despite all the evidence supporting it and the misperceptions spread by Creationist sites such as “there are no transitional forms”, you’re committing one of the greatest sins in The Gospel According to Cecil (that was tongue-in-cheek): willful ignorance. Second, a lot of us are aware of the movement to teach Creation science as well as or instead of evolution in school districts and even in states. Evolution is constantly being tested and refined. As far as I can make out, the only way to test or argue against Creation science involve theology. It becomes a threat to me when you tell me what my niece and nephew can study in schools because it conflicts with your religious beliefs. I don’t think any of us here are out to undermine your beliefs or anyone else’s, except possibly our own 😉 but, as you may have noticed, we’re impossibly curious. We want to know why things are the way they are, and “Because.” isn’t enough of an answer. I know it’s hard for me to understand people who can take “Because” for an answer. If we sound a bit like small children, well, in some ways, I am. On the other hand, if I recall correctly, Christ didn’t exactly disapprove of that. To me, not looking at the beauty, complexity, and intricacy of this marvelous world we’ve been given is like the difference between a silouhette and the actual person. The former might be beautiful in its own right, but it lacks the detail, the character, and the life of the latter. Then again, you’re talking to an adult whose favourite question is still “Why?” and whose second favourite question is “Why not?” CJ ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/85 "2003-02-06T22:16:41Z")
By the way, sorry about the typo in your name – that’s what I get for doing my own coding and not previewing. CJ ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/86 "2003-02-06T22:27:53Z")
_Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with **all your mind.** _ Matthew 22:37 ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/87 "2003-02-06T23:21:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*I don’t know that it’s a threat to me, I just can’t be honest and say I believe it. \*\* I think if you’d learn more about evolution you might change your mind. If it’s not a concern of yours, then by all means don’t accept it; but please don’t try to teach others that it’s false, when you don’t know much about it (that may sound harsh, but I don’t mean it to be). > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > **Who’s to say that creation can’t work just as well as evolution?** It all depends on what you mean by “creation”, I’m assuming you mean either YEC or ID, and if that’s the case, the evidence and logic say creation doesn’t work as well as evolution. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\* Who’s to say all the info on evolution is even being interpreted properly? \*\* If one scientist was all we had working on evolution, then this might be accurate. Keep in mind there are thousands of scientists scrutinizing the theory, in order to update it, change it, or somehow or another get their name involved in it. If it could be proven that evolution was false then you have to believe scientists would be all over it like children on chocolate. When I say scientists, I say legitimate scientists and not thoroughly debunked scientists like Dr. did-not-submit-his-ID-theory-for-peer-review- BEHE. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*Where are all the fossils of the transitional life forms? I just don’t buy it. \*\* First: Transitional fossils are entirely unnecessary in terms of proving evolution, the ones we have are a **bonus**. IIRC immunity shots are one of the benefits that have sprung from the theory of evolution. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*Is it a threat to you that I believe God said “Let there be” and it was? \*\* Not at all. While I don’t pretend to understand how God would work, I have no doubt in my mind that he created life. AFAIK we _can’t_ study the _why_, but we can certainly study the how and the when. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*Is God limited in your mind that He can’t create that way? \*\* Not at all. I think it’s monumentally _more_ impressive that God created in the fashion that he did. With all the mystery that still revolves around the issue, I’m immensly more satisfied that God created life by more than just a point and a click. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*I’ve believed in creation ever since I can remember and I’m not going to just start saying, “hmm, I guess I’ll believe in evolution now” because some scientists say that it’s so. \*\* I understand that, it’s hard to accept new things. Do you have doubts about whether you are correct about evolution? Does it matter to you? Does it matter to you if your kids/friends/preachers accept evolution? If any of those three questions are a yes, then I would urge you to pick up a book _by a reputable evolutionary biologist_ on evolution. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/88 "2003-02-07T00:32:58Z")
I can’t say that evolution could absolutely not be a possibility for God, though I just don’t lean in that direction. Thanks for saying that God could have created the way I think even though I know you believe otherwise. It’s just not a big problem with me, and no I won’t try to prove that He didn’t create the way you say. In the larger scheme of things (you probably know what I mean, don’t want to hijack this thread) how people believe on this paraticular subject is open for discussion and not as important as other things. I used to think that evolution meant no Creator, everything just happened all by itself and now I’m aware that believing in evolution doesn’t necessarily mean a disbelief in a Creator. But I’m happy and content to remain with the beliefs I have about it and won’t say there’s no validity to another position on this subject, though. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/89 "2003-02-07T00:37:44Z")
P.S. I don’t know what YEC or ID stands for. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/90 "2003-02-07T00:51:59Z")
**H4E** , YEC = Young Earth Creationist ID = Intelligent Design. PS, Meatros has said repeatedly that he _does_ believe in theistic evolution (that is, that God created the universe and that evolution is part of God’s creation). Many other posters on this board share this view, including **cjhoworth, Polycarp, Libertarian, tomndebb** (just off the top of my head). In fact I believe that theistic evolution is probably the most prevalent view in america right now. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/91 "2003-02-07T01:44:02Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **His4Ever** _ > I used to think that evolution meant no Creator, everything just happened all by itself and now I’m aware that believing in evolution doesn’t necessarily mean a disbelief in a Creator. I can’t speak for anyone else here, but I’ve just had a bit of a revelation. I think I’ve mentioned that I grew up a Christian. I also learned about evolution along with basic biology in school. Therefore, it never occurred to me to think that people might think that because I believe evolution occurred and occurs that would mean I don’t believe in God. I never dreamed that the two beliefs might be seen as incompatible. **His4Ever** , in some ways, your form of Christianity is as much a mystery to me as Zen Buddhism is to you. There weren’t any Fundamentalist Christians around when I was growing up, so I didn’t have any good sources of information about it. My former Fundamentalist friends have explained a lot to me (they still speak well of those days, by the way), but I’ve still got a lot to learn. Thanks for being willing to teach. CJ ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/92 "2003-02-07T04:16:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cjhoworth \* > \*\*I can’t speak for anyone else here, but I’ve just had a bit of a revelation. I think I’ve mentioned that I grew up a Christian. I also learned about evolution along with basic biology in school. Therefore, it never occurred to me to think that people might think that because I believe evolution occurred and occurs that would mean I don’t believe in God. I never dreamed that the two beliefs might be seen as incompatible. \*\* I grew up quasi-Christian (read: my father was a christian, but they NEVER talked about it, or went to church. I had to discover that on my own), and I think I learned about evolution in school. To be honest I didn’t learn much in HS and the lower grades-I was preoccupied with a lot of other things. Some creationists do indeed equate evolution with atheism, no matter how much you say to the contrary. It really really bugs me. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cjhoworth \* > \*\ ***His4Ever** , in some ways, your form of Christianity is as much a mystery to me as Zen Buddhism is to you. There weren’t any Fundamentalist Christians around when I was growing up, so I didn’t have any good sources of information about it. My former Fundamentalist friends have explained a lot to me (they still speak well of those days, by the way), but I’ve still got a lot to learn. Thanks for being willing to teach. CJ \*\* I have to echo what **cjhoworth** is saying. Fundamentalist Christians to me are mysterious, I won’t get into it really because it would sound too much like judgment; Suffice it is to say, personal belief is fine (IMO), if it goes against modern thinking so be it-it’s when personal beliefs try to obstruct learning and other peoples beliefs that I begin to have a problem with it. Incidently, **Diogenes the Cynic** if you don’t mind me asking, what are your beliefs? I get the impression that you don’t have a problem with religions, but that you aren’t religious (I apologize if I’ve missed something obvious). ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/93 "2003-02-07T05:54:06Z")
> [@](#): > > _Meatros_ > Incidently, Diogenes the Cynic if you don’t mind me asking, what are your beliefs? I get the impression that you don’t have a problem with religions, but that you aren’t religious (I apologize if I’ve missed something obvious). I define myself as agnostic, although I am attracted to Zen philosophy and practice Zen meditation. I was raised more or less as a Christian. My dad was Catholic and I went to Catholic schools. My mom was Southern Baptist and I went to Baptist sunday school. I knew from a very early age that I did not really believe everything I was taught, and I was usually bored during church services, but I loved sunday school, specificallly because I was enchanted by the Bible stories, especially in the Old Testament. The tales of Noah, Moses, David, Sampson, etc. seemed like great adventures to me, even though I never really believed them literally. I was fascinated in a different way by Jesus, but I really didn’t believe in the miracles. Later, as an adult, I became very interested in the historical origins of religious myths and started reading a lot of stuff, trying to find out what actually happened, and who these people really were. I got a degree in philosophy and religion and continued to do a lot of heavy research after college, not just into Judeo-Christian myths but Islamic, Buddhist and Hindu as well. I seem to be fascinated by two main facets of religion. One is the mystic experience, the other is the great historical founders of religion. I feel a tremendous curiosity about who the real Jesus, Mohammed and Buddha were. What did they _look_ like? What did they _sound_ like? What really happened after the crucifixion? Is there anyone on the Earth _now_ who has the potential to be that kind of spiritual leader? It;s hard to come by concrete answers to these questions but I persevere nontheless.I’m driven to. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/94 "2003-02-07T13:27:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\ ***H4E** , > YEC = Young Earth Creationist > ID = Intelligent Design. > > PS, Meatros has said repeatedly that he _does_ believe in theistic evolution (that is, that God created the universe and that evolution is part of God’s creation). Many other posters on this board share this view, including **cjhoworth, Polycarp, Libertarian, tomndebb** (just off the top of my head). > In fact I believe that theistic evolution is probably the most prevalent view in america right now. \*\* Thanks for the info. It’s hard for me to remember all these abbreviations! **CJ** , I feel the need to clariify something. Although I do consider myself to be a fundamentalist Christian, I don’t believe that there are passages of Scripture that aren’t interpretated literally (did I say that right?) I believe in interpretating it literally first, unless the passage clearly indicates otherwise as in parables, allegory or otherwise. A lot of times scripture explains itself. Jesus told parables to represent a truth He wanted His disciples to learn. If He happens to say “there once was a man, etc.” then I take that to mean just what it says unless the passage indicates in some way that it’s just a parable or representation or whatever. I don’t try to spiritualize or symbolize everything. Am I explaining this right? Anyway, I’m lousy at explaining sometimes, don’t know if that makes my view any clearer. I might look for a link that explains it better when I have more time. Have a nice day. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![sigung86](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b38774/32.png) [@sigung86](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sigung86)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/95 "2003-02-07T13:52:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*This is definitely true. Carl Sagan referred to this problem as “scientific illiteracy.” The media doesn’t help much when it plays along with crap like the “Pet Psychic” and pseudo-documentaries about UFO’s and Bigfoot. \*\* Unfortunately, there are as many “bits” of evidence and fleeting insights regarding the reality, if not the origin, of UFOs as there are for the various routes of evolution. Now… I think people who believe in BigFoot are just plain silly. 😛 Dan ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/96 "2003-02-07T13:58:05Z")
> [@](#): > > I believe in interpretating it literally first, unless the passage clearly indicates otherwise as in parables, allegory or otherwise. Indeed, **His4** , this is a thoughtful and reasonable approach. However, you can appreciate that not every parable or allegory, having been handed down via oral tradition for centuries, would begin “This is a parable:…” ---
**Author:** ![sigung86](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b38774/32.png) [@sigung86](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sigung86)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/97 "2003-02-07T14:16:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SentientMeat \* > \*\*Indeed, **His4** , this is a thoughtful and reasonable approach. However, you can appreciate that not every parable or allegory, having been handed down via oral tradition for centuries, would begin “This is a parable:…” \*\* I thought all those began with "Once Upon a time … " :dubious: Dan ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/98 "2003-02-07T16:28:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sigung86 \* > \*\*Unfortunately, there are as many “bits” of evidence and fleeting insights regarding the reality, if not the origin, of UFOs as there are for the various routes of evolution. Now… I think people who believe in BigFoot are just plain silly. 😛 > > Dan \*\* I disagree. Specific routes of evolution may not be explained very well, but on the whole there is a lot of evidence and not just “bits” that support it. AFAIK UFO’s don’t have much evidence beyond easily doctored pictures and eye witness accounts, neither of which are very scientific. ---
**Author:** ![sigung86](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b38774/32.png) [@sigung86](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sigung86)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/99 "2003-02-07T16:47:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Meatros \* > \*\*I disagree. Specific routes of evolution may not be explained very well, but on the whole there is a lot of evidence and not just “bits” that support it. AFAIK UFO’s don’t have much evidence beyond easily doctored pictures and eye witness accounts, neither of which are very scientific. \*\* Don’t misunderstand me… I’m not dissing on evolution, not by any means… As a matter of fact, if evidence were all that were required to create a confirmation, I would say that there is more than enough evidence for both evolution, and UFOs… I’m saying, roughly, that I’m just not sure how either one of them began, continue, or where they came from. CHEERS??? Dan ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463/100 "2003-02-07T16:51:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sigung86 \* > \*\*Don’t misunderstand me… I’m not dissing on evolution, not by any means… As a matter of fact, if evidence were all that were required to create a confirmation, I would say that there is more than enough evidence for both evolution, and UFOs… I’m saying, roughly, that I’m just not sure how either one of them began, continue, or where they came from. CHEERS??? > > Dan \*\* Cheers I suppose. It just seems like you are saying that the evidence for UFO’s is as credible as the evidence for evolution-not a comparison I would agree with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-evolutionary-idea/152463.md?page=6)