# An exerpt from my talk with my fundie brother **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 20, 2003, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204 "2003-12-20T20:21:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204/41 "2003-12-22T00:12:26Z")
I am a fundie,but wouldnot kill my child. I would assume I was hearing voices and that it wasn’tGod. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204/42 "2003-12-22T00:15:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*I am a fundie,but wouldnot kill my child. > I would assume I was hearing voices and that it wasn’tGod. \*\* Abraham heard voices, and assumed it WAS God, at least according to the legend. How do you tell the difference? ---
**Author:** ![AtomicBanana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/df705f/32.png) [@AtomicBanana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AtomicBanana)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204/43 "2003-12-22T00:17:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Leviticus 19:19 in my Bible supports Zev’s argument: “… neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.” Is there any reason for this? Doesn’t seem terribly immoral to my untrained eye, is there a backstory for why this would be an undesirable practice? ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204/44 "2003-12-22T00:22:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by AtomicBanana \* > \*\*Is there any reason for this? Doesn’t seem terribly immoral to my untrained eye, is there a backstory for why this would be an undesirable practice? \*\* There are some commandments in the Torah for which we don’t know the reason. We simply accept that God gave us the commandment and we observe it. However, that does not stop us from speculating as to possible reasons for the commandment. A famous attempt to explain this one brings down that Cain’s offering to God consisted of linen while Abel’s offering consisted of wool. Because of the dichotomy between the two offerings and the events that followed it, God (so we presume) said that the two should never be brought together again. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![BellaDellaItalia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/fbc32d/32.png) [@BellaDellaItalia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BellaDellaItalia)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204/45 "2003-12-22T00:33:16Z")
> [@](#): > > So you _would_ kill your child if you felt God was telling you to? The point is that I don’t feel God would ever tell any of us to kill anyone. In fact He has forbidden us from it, as discussed earlier in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204/46 "2003-12-22T00:34:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > \*\*There are some commandments in the Torah for which we don’t know the reason. We simply accept that God gave us the commandment and we observe it. > > However, that does not stop us from speculating as to possible reasons for the commandment. A famous attempt to explain this one brings down that Cain’s offering to God consisted of linen while Abel’s offering consisted of wool. Because of the dichotomy between the two offerings and the events that followed it, God (so we presume) said that the two should never be brought together again. > > Zev Steinhardt \*\* With all due respect for your scholarly knowledge of the text of the Torah, which far exceeds mine, WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING to take this as an inalterable commandment from, as you so delicately put it, “G-d”? Isn’t this exactly taken from the same cloth (so to speak) as the fundie’s arguments? ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204/47 "2003-12-22T00:57:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BellaDellaItalia \* > \*\*The point is that I don’t feel God would ever tell any of us to kill anyone. In fact He has forbidden us from it, as discussed earlier in this thread. \*\* That may be your point, but it isn’t mine, and I was the one who asked the question. Also, you were the one who said "God asked Abraham to kill his son as sacrifice as a test. He just wanted to see if Abraham was willing to give up his son for Him and His will. " Are you now saying that you don’t think this is true? God didn’t actually ask Abraham to kill his son? ---
**Author:** ![Mines\_Mystique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mines\_Mystique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mines_Mystique)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204/48 "2003-12-22T00:57:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Musicat \* > \*\*Yeah, that sounds exactly what I was taught as a child by well-meaning adults. But is there any justification from biblical text whatsoever? > > \*\* I don’t know off the top of my head, but let me do some research and see what I can find. I’m pretty sure that there is, but I’m not sure where. Andrew ---
**Author:** ![Flamsterette\_X](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/41988e/32.png) [@Flamsterette\_X](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flamsterette_X)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204/49 "2003-12-22T01:05:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BellaDellaItalia \* > \*\*Forget murder, who in thier right mind would name a child Cotton? This is a topic worth discussing, people. \*\* Increase Mather was Cotton Mather’s father, and they were Puritans of the laste 1600’s. I hear that the Puritans of the time named their kids after virtues and such… no cite. F\_X ---
**Author:** ![BellaDellaItalia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/fbc32d/32.png) [@BellaDellaItalia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BellaDellaItalia)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204/50 "2003-12-22T01:24:20Z")
> [@](#): > > God didn’t actually ask Abraham to kill his son? No! ---
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204/51 "2003-12-22T01:28:13Z")
It isn’t about a cotton/poly blend that the bible meant, it was mixing plaids and polka dots. Now _that_ is sinful. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204/52 "2003-12-22T01:32:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BellaDellaItalia \* > \*\*No! \*\* Ok, well you are the only Christian I know who doesn’t believe that story. Mind you, I realize fully that (according to the story–I’m not a Christian and think the Bible is about as real as Harry Potter) God didn’t intend for him to actually kill his son, that his plan was to swap out the ram the whole time… but that doesn’t change the fact that he initially did ask him to kill his son. But according to you it didn’t happen? Does your church teach that or is it just an element of the Bible that you chose to dismiss independantly? ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204/53 "2003-12-22T01:33:34Z")
independently. Stupid fingers. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204/54 "2003-12-22T01:38:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Musicat \* > \*\*With all due respect for your scholarly knowledge of the text of the Torah, which far exceeds mine, WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING to take this as an inalterable commandment from, as you so delicately put it, “G-d”? Isn’t this exactly taken from the same cloth (so to speak) as the fundie’s arguments? \*\* I’m sorry, **Musicat** , was there something you missed in your four plus years on these boards? Orthodox Jews believe that the Torah was given by God to the Jews at Sinai. In it are 613 commandments. Among these commandments are: [ul] [li]To not eat non-kosher food[/li][li]To keep _Shabbos_[/li][li]To blow a _shofar_ on Rosh HaShannah[/li][li]To fast on Yom Kippur[/li][li]To not eat _chametz_ on Passover[/li][li]To circumcize our sons[/li][li]To put _tefillin_ on our heads and arms daily[/li][li]To not make tatoos in our flesh[/li][li]Not to wear clothing of the opposite gender[/li][li]To write a Torah scroll[/li][/ul] In all these cases, we don’t know why God commanded these things. As I said earlier, we can try to posit reasons, but we can’t say for certain why He commanded them. We simply follow the commandments. If it surprises you after over four years on these boards that Orthodox Jews observe the commandments because we believe God told us to, then you haven’t been paying attention. In any event, if you want to believe that I am smoking something because I don’t wear wool-linen blends, or because I dispose of my _chametz_ over Passover, or refrain from getting tatoos, so be it. However, suffie it to say that Orthodox Jews all over the world keep the same commandments as I do, and if so, then we must all be smoking the same thing. :rolleyes: Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![BellaDellaItalia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/fbc32d/32.png) [@BellaDellaItalia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BellaDellaItalia)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204/55 "2003-12-22T01:39:17Z")
That isn’t what I meant either, and I think you know it. I give up; it’s not worth the effort anymore. Believe what you want. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204/56 "2003-12-22T05:20:46Z")
I don’t “know it”… I’m trying to figure out what you’re talking about. Do you believe God told Abraham to kill his son or don’t you? You aren’t making any sense. Go ahead and “give up” if you can’t coherantly express your ideas, but don’t blame it on me. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204/57 "2003-12-22T05:33:38Z")
For all those who’d like to discuss the Abraham sacrificing of his son thing, let’s move it over [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=230745). ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204/58 "2003-12-22T13:28:59Z")
Gotta love those old biblical laws and such. 😃 Incidentally, what is the consensus on Samuel, chapter 20:30-42? ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204/59 "2003-12-22T13:51:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BellaDellaItalia \* > **glee** , I am a Christian, and have no children, save a much-younger brother. Please don’t imply that I must be a terrible coldhearted person because I choose to put God first in my life. This is a tricky post, because of several reasons. Firstly the topic may be drifitng away from the forum. Secondly this is a potentially emotional topic. However I’ll have a go. BellaDellaItalia, I think there are clear implications if you put the Biblical God first in your life. I understand that Jesus was a marvellous role-model, eschewing violence, loving children and giving moral guidance. However the God of the Old Testament is not someone I want to obey: 1. God told Abraham to sacrifice his son. Abraham built an altar, tied his son to it and was ‘stretching forward his hand’ (Genesis 22 v10) to kill Isaac when God suddenly told him to stop. I find this an appalling example of child abuse. 2. When Pharoah was holding the Israelites prisoner in Egypt, Moses asked for their freedom, saying God wanted it. Pharoah refuses, so God sends various punishments (the plagues). The final plague was when God killed all the firstborn in Egypt. (Exodus 12 v34). Was this appalling slaughter necessary? Amazingly it was all God’s plan. Twice God ‘hardens Pharoah’s heart’ so he will not let the Israelites go. (Exodus 10 v27; Exodus 11 v10). I would never worship such a vicious God. 3. Jepthah, a captain of Israel, promises God a burnt offering ‘of whatsoever comes forth of the doors of my house to meet me when I return’ if God in return gives victory over the Ammonites. It seems ludicrous to me that he did not foresee it might be his only child. It was indeed his daughter and he duly sacrificed his child to God, in exchange for a military victory. (Judges 12 v29-40). Words fail me. ---
**Author:** ![mazirian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@mazirian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mazirian)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204/60 "2003-12-22T14:11:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Flamsterette\_X \* > Increase Mather was Cotton Mather’s father, and they were Puritans of the laste 1600’s. I hear that the Puritans of the time named their kids after virtues and such… no cite. > > F\_X Don’t forget the black sheep of the family, Anti Mather and Dark Mather. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204.md?page=4)