# An exerpt from my talk with my fundie brother **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 20, 2003, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204 "2003-12-20T20:21:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204/81 "2003-12-22T23:49:14Z")
No problem, **Zev.** I was wondering if you had anything else than just faith and hope that any of those stories actually happened. I have heard some arguments that the plagues took place based on (interpretations of) the Papyrus of Ipuwer, and I wondered if modern scholarly thought included anything else of archeological significance to bolster major events in the Torah. From your response, it appears not. Therefore, to me, this whole discussion – did Saul feel this way, why did the Pharaoh do this or that – is moot if we have unreliable evidence that it ever happened at all. Better investigate the psychological workings of the ancient mind(s) that generated this legend. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204/82 "2003-12-23T16:24:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Meatros \* > \*\*In any event, it might be relevant if it’s viewed as a homosexual relationship-because the only person who get’s offended is Saul. God doesn’t appear disturbed. Then again that might not mean much. I suppose my point would be is that while Leviticus seems to cast homosexuals in a bad light, other passages might not. I have to read up a little more because I could have sworn there were other incidents in the bible where there were favorable people who were (or at least it would seem they were) homosexual. \*\* As **zev** has said, just because God is silent doesn’t mean he approves. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204/83 "2003-12-23T17:47:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Musicat \* > \*\*Has anyone considered that the reason such-and-such is in the legend is that the legend’s writer, which I think is more likely a homo sapiens than a god, just wrote the story that way for dramatic effect? \*\* No. No one has considered that. You are the very first human to ever doubt that the Bible is a true and literal history. Everyone who has replied to this thread thus far, for example, believes every last syllable of the Bible as being absolute concrete proof and evidence of fact. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204/84 "2003-12-23T19:01:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > Again, how do you know this? Because God is silent on the matter? Because God gave very specific instructions how He wanted offerings, under many different circumstances. It seems clear to me that if sacrificing an innocent child was abhorrent to Him, there would indeed have been a message. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > Lot’s daughters slept with him. There is no mention by God that this was good or bad. Does this mean that God approved? > > The Jews in the days of Ezra sinned by marrying non-Jewish women. God never came down and said “Bad!” Does that mean that God approved? > > Micha set up an idol in the northern part of Israel in the days of the Judges. There was no mention of God’s disapproval of this. Does that mean that God disapproved? > > The point I’m trying to make is that just because God didn’t send down the bolts from the blue and boom from the heavens doesn’t mean that He approved of the behavior or that we have to take it as an example to follow. > > Zev Steinhardt Well this thread was set up as how a fundamentalist uses the Bible. And so direct quoting of incidents (and taking them at face value) is correct from that viewpoint. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204/85 "2003-12-23T19:15:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by glee \* > \*\*Because God gave very specific instructions how He wanted offerings, under many different circumstances. \*\* That’s absolutely right. And in no case is a human sacrifice specified. > [@](#): > > \*\* > It seems clear to me that if sacrificing an innocent child was abhorrent to Him, there would indeed have been a message. \*\* God doesn’t have boom out of the heavens every time a wrong is done. If he did so, there would be no free will left in the world. The fact that God was silent in this instance does _not_ indicate that He approved. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Bren\_Cameron\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@Bren\_Cameron\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bren_Cameron_1)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204/86 "2003-12-23T22:27:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mines Mystique \* > \*\*I don’t know off the top of my head, but let me do some research and see what I can find. I’m pretty sure that there is, but I’m not sure where. > > Andrew \*\* Try Acts 15. The relevant section is pretty long, but the gist of it is that there were two factions within the early church, one of which taught that gentile converts to Christianity had to also be circumcized and follow the law of Moses. There was a meeting in Jerusalem, at which the two sides had their say. > [@](#): > > But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses." However, in the end the council decided to send out a letter to the Gentile converts of Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: > [@](#): > > Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren. They wrote this letter by them: The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings. Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”; to whom we gave no such commandment; it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell. I imagine that’s the scriptural basis, or the most obvious one. I think there are other, more ambiguous ones scattered throughout the epistles. ---
**Author:** ![Harmonious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ad7895/32.png) [@Harmonious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204/87 "2003-12-23T22:30:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by glee \* > \*\*Because God gave very specific instructions how He wanted offerings, under many different circumstances. It seems clear to me that if sacrificing an innocent child was abhorrent to Him, there would indeed have been a message. > \*\* It occurs to me that you are also looking at a 4000 year old time with a 2003 lens. Zev explained before that it was not so bizare, for the time and culture, for a person to sacrifice children. The fact that Abraham was willing to do so does not mean that he was a horrible human being. It means that he was willing to go with the standard idiology of the time. The surprise ending was that God told Abraham _not_ to sacrifice Isaac, albeit at the last moment. It has been a few millenia since the binding of Isaac, and the concept of life being precious (particularly children) has been circulated. God made that clear - God spent a lot of time and text telling us not to murder, and not to “give our children to Molech” - a specific idolatry which required child sacrifice. After living in a society where Biblical standards are the norm (even though it is more of a free society, things other than Biblical are contraversial), the concept of child sacrifice horrifies us. The concept that the destruction of innocent lives is with bred into our society. (This is a good thing.) ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204/88 "2003-12-23T23:42:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Harmonious \* > It occurs to me that you are also looking at a 4000 year old time with a 2003 lens. I’m an atheist. We are discussing fundamentalists and their viewpoints. They take quotes from the Bible literally. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Harmonious \* > Zev explained before that it was not so bizare, for the time and culture, for a person to sacrifice children. The fact that Abraham was willing to do so does not mean that he was a horrible human being. It means that he was willing to go with the standard idiology of the time. The surprise ending was that God told Abraham _not_ to sacrifice Isaac, albeit at the last moment. So God’s ideology has changed since then? Wish he’d make up his mind - is child sacrifice a good thing, or not? :rolleyes: The surprise for me is that Abraham was willing to slaughter his child. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204/89 "2003-12-23T23:52:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > God doesn’t have boom out of the heavens every time a wrong is done. If he did so, there would be no free will left in the world. The fact that God was silent in this instance does _not_ indicate that He approved. > > Zev Steinhardt Jepthah makes a deal with God. In exchange for military victory, he will sacrifice whatever reaches him first. It’s his daughter. Even assuming an omnipotent God couldn’t have foreseen this, why did God give Jepthah his victory, unless He approved? Why didn’t He produce a handy animal substitute? ---
**Author:** ![Harmonious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ad7895/32.png) [@Harmonious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204/90 "2003-12-24T00:18:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by glee \* > \*\*So God’s ideology has changed since then? Wish he’d make up his mind - is child sacrifice a good thing, or not? :rolleyes: > The surprise for me is that Abraham was willing to slaughter his child. \*\* God’s ideology has not changed. The surrounding culture’s ideology has changed. It was God’s plan to set it up to LOOK like He was asking for child sacrifice (like the local religions of the time), and then VOIDED it - it was one of the clearest ways to say, “Hey there! Following Me is different than doing what everyone else around here is doing!” God hasn’t changed. The fact that people today look at the concept of child sacrifice in horror means that society today (in a general way) is a lot closer to what God probably wants from society than it was when Abraham walked the earth. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204/91 "2003-12-24T00:43:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by OpalCat \* > \*\*No. No one has considered that. You are the very first human to ever doubt that the Bible is a true and literal history. Everyone who has replied to this thread thus far, for example, believes every last syllable of the Bible as being absolute concrete proof and evidence of fact. :rolleyes: \*\* Wow, on rereading that it came out way _way_ snarkier than I intended it. I meant it much more tongue-in-cheek and it came out instead sounding mean and nasty. I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204/92 "2003-12-24T14:07:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Harmonious \* > God’s ideology has not changed. The surrounding culture’s ideology has changed. It was God’s plan to set it up to LOOK like He was asking for child sacrifice (like the local religions of the time), and then VOIDED it - it was one of the clearest ways to say, “Hey there! Following Me is different than doing what everyone else around here is doing!” > > God hasn’t changed. The fact that people today look at the concept of child sacrifice in horror means that society today (in a general way) is a lot closer to what God probably wants from society than it was when Abraham walked the earth. The God of the Old Testament demanded Abraham commit child abuse. I’m certain you can think of a better way for God to mark his religion. :rolleyes: He also slaughtered an entire generation of Egyptians to force the release of His people, after forcing Pharoah to keep the Israelites prisoner. He accepted a deal with Jepthah which resulted in human sacrifice to Him. I haven’t gotten onto the massacre of Sodom and Gomorrah, nor the slaughtering of the prophets of Baal, nor the drowning of the Egyptian army, nor the persecution of Job. **Do you not see any difference between the God of the Old Testament and Jesus?** ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204/93 "2003-12-24T14:42:11Z")
Thanks, **OpalCat** , apology accepted. Take another anti-snark pill. 🙂 I’m glad I waited for a while before replying! I was going to (but I won’t) sprinkle my reply with numerous quotes from this thread to illustrate my point, which is: while few people may take the bible as serious history or solid commandments from God, many seem to be arguing that Moses said this, Abraham did this, Christ said that, etc., when their very existence is in doubt and the event described may never have occurred. Certainly there is little or no corroborating evidence for much of the bible. While I don’t claim that my theory of biblical text origin – that it was set down by imaginative scribes and storytellers using oral history sources – is original, I think this thread isn’t giving that theory its due. Rather than argue what actually happened in a story, I would rather examine the mind of the culture and the scribe for psychological clues of why the story took a particular twist. For example, the Abraham/Isaac sacrifice story seems constructed to instill blind obedience in religious followers. It says that you should trust God without question, no matter how bizarre the commandment, because He knows best and it will all turn out OK in the end. Sort of a super-patriarchal concept, and that matches the culture of the day pretty well, I would say. Similarly, fairy tales reflect the culture of their day. In a time when every female dreamed of being swept off her feet by a white knight (literally) and carried off to a castle to be cared for forever in luxury, those were the kind of tales that were written. When dragons were thought to exist, dragon slayers appeared in stories. How many (medieval) fairy tales are there about single moms struggling to break the glass ceiling? ---
**Author:** ![bagkitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ab992/32.png) [@bagkitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bagkitty)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204/94 "2003-12-24T15:15:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by skeptic\_ev \* > \*\*Yes, up until we were redeemed by Christ’s ransom. (Orthodox Jews, obviously, do not believe this and practice strict observance of the Mosaic Law.) However, the basic meaning of Lev. 18:22 (unlike, say, the injunction to not boil a kid in its mother’s milk) is found in the Christian Greek scriptures (aka New Testament) as well and thus still applies. \*\* Since these New Testament references are to temple prostitution, will the fundies stop pestering us gay folk if we promise not to pay for sex?😃 ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204/95 "2003-12-24T19:12:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Musicat \* > \*\* Take another anti-snark pill. 🙂 \*\* Hey! These taste like jelly beans! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-exerpt-from-my-talk-with-my-fundie-brother/220204.md?page=4)