# "An historic..." vs "A historic" **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 21, 2009, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-historic-vs-a-historic/482357 "2009-01-21T21:16:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-historic-vs-a-historic/482357/21 "2009-01-22T03:20:16Z")
“En anglais, le “h” est toujours aspiré.” In any case, the “an historic” usage for some reason gained currency in the UK (probably as RP), even though it doesn’t make any sense. ---
**Author:** ![AngelSoft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/angelsoft/32/440_2.png) [@AngelSoft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AngelSoft)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-historic-vs-a-historic/482357/22 "2009-01-22T04:15:44Z")
If words were spelled how they sound and they sound like they should start with a vowel, then use ‘an’. That’s how I remember it. So like “an honest opinion” and like someone already mentioned, “half an hour”. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-historic-vs-a-historic/482357/23 "2009-01-22T06:55:53Z")
> [@Litoris](#): > > Pretentious twat checking in – I was taught that even if the “h” is pronounced, “an” is always used in front of h-words. > > FWIW, I went to school in TN, starting kindergarten in 1977, graduating in 1990 – not one teacher in those years said it was acceptable to use “a” in front of an h-word. It grates my nerves to hear “a historic” almost as much as hearing a sentence that ends in a preposition. I’ll bet you just weren’t paying attention. Have you ever, in your life, heard of anybody saying, “I gave him an helping hand?” How about “He had an hand in the success of the corporation”? How about a little kid who’s “an holy terror?” But I sympathize, it probably was an honest mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-historic-vs-a-historic/482357/24 "2009-01-22T07:08:19Z")
> [@Gary\_T](#): > > And no one is suggesting using “an” with those words - you’re making a straw man. It would behoove you to learn what it is you’re ranting about, so as not to make foolish comparisons. > > The initial H can become silent, and thus require the word “an,” for some speakers **WHEN** : the word has **three** or more syllables **and** the stress is on the **second** syllable. “Historic” fits these parameters, the words you mentioned do not. So, you would refer to “An Hispanic man”, then? “An Hassidic Rabbi”? “An Hospitable host”? ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-historic-vs-a-historic/482357/25 "2009-01-22T07:11:46Z")
> [@Litoris](#): > > Pretentious twat checking in – I was taught that even if the “h” is pronounced, “an” is always used in front of h-words. So you live in an house and wear an hat? ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-historic-vs-a-historic/482357/26 "2009-01-22T07:23:39Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > So, you would refer to “An Hispanic man”, then? “An Hassidic Rabbi”? “An Hospitable host”? An horrific way to speak if you ask me. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-historic-vs-a-historic/482357/27 "2009-01-22T08:00:44Z")
Heh 🙂 I was thinking that the only other times I’d heard this usage was “an hotel” and “an hostess”. But yeah, there’s that one too. Anyway, I’m willing to tolerate “an historic”, since it crops up all over the place and I’m kinda used to it at this point, but don’t try to make me use it too! ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-historic-vs-a-historic/482357/28 "2009-01-22T08:52:57Z")
I suppose it sounds different if you pronounce the “A” differently. For example: “Ay historical occasion” “An historical occasion” Both sound fine ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-historic-vs-a-historic/482357/29 "2009-01-22T09:22:04Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > So, you would refer to “An Hispanic man”, then? “An Hassidic Rabbi”? “An Hospitable host”? Hopefully not in the second case, because we need to be able to distinguish between a Hassidic Rabbi and an acidic rabbi. American Heritage Dictionary; _An_ was also once a common variant before words beginning with _h_ in which the first syllable was unstressed; thus 18th-century authors wrote either _a historical_ or _an historical_, but _a history_, not _an history_. This usage made sense in that people often did not pronounce the initial _h_ in words such as _historical_ and _heroic_, but by the late 19th century, educated speakers were usually giving their initial _h_’s a huff, and the practice of writing _an_ began to die out. Nowadays it survives primarily before the word _historical_. You may also come across it in the phrases _an hysterectomy_ or _an hereditary_ trait. These usages are acceptable in formal writing. I would note that it says acceptable; it does not say preferred. Chicago Manual of Style, the Associated Press and New York Times style guides all stick to the straight rule of _a_ before consonant sounds and _an_ before vowel sounds. ETA: Directly addressing the OP, I find it mildly annoying in writing, but scarcely notice it in speech. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-historic-vs-a-historic/482357/30 "2009-01-22T14:52:04Z")
> [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > Where did the second syllable rule (my underlining) come from? From the observation that if the main stress is on, say, the third syllable, then there is usually a secondary stress on the first syllable. This secondary stress would tend to preclude the H going silent. Apparently this is not a hard and fast rule - I can find a little reference to it on the net, but **TWDuke’s** info suggests it hasn’t been universally observed. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-historic-vs-a-historic/482357/31 "2009-01-22T15:07:44Z")
> [@Gary\_T](#): > > Actually, with words starting with a vowel **sound**. It’s a critical distinction. > > There is justification for saying “an 'istoric,” where the H becomes silent due to the stress on the following syllable, and in line with that the phrase is sometimes written as “an historic.” Some people read that and, ignorant of how it is meant to be pronounced, say “an” **AND** aspirate the H, which is wrong. > > “A historic event” is acceptable usage, and is the most common. However, “an historic event,” written as “an historic event” and pronounced as “an 'istoric event,” is also acceptable usage. The latter is only acceptable usage if you would also say “the 'istoric event” or “today’s event is 'istorical”. You can’t change the pronunciation to fit the article you want. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-historic-vs-a-historic/482357/32 "2009-01-22T15:20:55Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](#): > > The latter is only acceptable usage if you would also say “the 'istoric event” or “today’s event is 'istorical”. You can’t change the pronunciation to fit the article you want. I don’t how you find yourself the judge of what is acceptable and what is not, but you might want to read the info in this thread and Google on _“an historic”_ to learn something about it. The dropping of the H is related specifically to the use of “an.” The acute brevity of the words “a” and “an” and the final N in the latter are factors here that lead some speakers to say “an 'istoric” (it rolls of the tongue more readily than “a historic”). The same factors do not apply to your examples. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-historic-vs-a-historic/482357/33 "2009-01-22T15:43:56Z")
> [@Gary\_T](#): > > I don’t how you find yourself the judge of what is acceptable and what is not, but you might want to read the info in this thread and Google on _“an historic”_ to learn something about it. The dropping of the H is related specifically to the use of “an.” The acute brevity of the words “a” and “an” and the final N in the latter are factors here that lead some speakers to say “an 'istoric” (it rolls of the tongue more readily than “a historic”). The same factors do not apply to your examples. Bill Walsh the International Section Copy Editor at the Washington Post conveniently organized a collection of authorities who agree with me (and him): > **[SHARP POINTS: An Ysterical Rant?](http://www.theslot.com/a-an.html)** [QUOTE=Bill Walsh, Copy Editor at the Washington Post] # Garner’s Modern American Usage acerbically supports the straight vowel-sound-vs.-consonant-sound position: “An humanitarian is, judged even by the most tolerant standards, a pretentious humanitarian.” # Patricia T. O’Conner’s “Woe Is I,” in so many words, gives the straight vowel-sound-vs.-consonant-sound explanation. # The Chicago Manual of Style gives the straight vowel-sound-vs.-consonant-sound explanation. # The Associated Press Stylebook gives the straight vowel-sound-vs.-consonant-sound explanation. # The United Press International stylebook gives the straight vowel-sound-vs.-consonant-sound explanation. # The Washington Post stylebook gives the straight vowel-sound-vs.-consonant-sound explanation. # The New York Times stylebook gives the straight vowel-sound-vs.-consonant-sound explanation. # The USA Today stylebook gives the straight vowel-sound-vs.-consonant-sound explanation. # The U.S. News & World Report stylebook gives the straight vowel-sound-vs.-consonant-sound explanation. # Bill Bryson’s Dictionary of Troublesome Words addresses a slightly different problem (“an FBI,” but “a NATO”) but Bryson explains himself in terms of vowel sounds and consonant sounds. To restate my position: First you must deal with the word. Repeat after me: “Historic, hotel, hysterical, Hispanic.” Did you pronounce those h’s? Then it’s a historic, a hotel, a hysterical, a Hispanic. If you truly said “Istoric, otel, ysterical, ispanic,” go ahead and say “an.” But you are in the minority. The standard pronunciations include the h, and so you must write “a.” [/QUOTE] So it’s not just me. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-historic-vs-a-historic/482357/34 "2009-01-22T17:53:39Z")
> [@Gary\_T](#): > > [This page](http://www.betterwritingskills.com/tip-w005.html) sums it up nicely. > [@Litoris](#): > > Pretentious twat checking in – I was taught that even if the “h” is pronounced, “an” is always used in front of h-words. > > FWIW, I went to school in TN, starting kindergarten in 1977, graduating in 1990 – not one teacher in those years said it was acceptable to use “a” in front of an h-word. It grates my nerves to hear “a historic” almost as much as hearing a sentence that ends in a preposition. > [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > I will never consider “an historic” to be correct. I don’t take “an history exam” or hear women talking about having “an hysterectomy” or bet on “an horse” at the track. > [@Gary\_T](#): > > And no one is suggesting using “an” with those words - you’re making a straw man. It would behoove you to learn what it is you’re ranting about, so as not to make foolish comparisons. **Litoris** did. > [@Gary\_T](#): > > The initial H can become silent, and thus require the word “an,” for some speakers **WHEN** : the word has **three** or more syllables **and** the stress is on the **second** syllable. “Historic” fits these parameters, the words you mentioned do not. > [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > Where did the second syllable rule (my underlining) come from? I’m assuming at this point you’re referring to the link that you posted, saying it “sums it up nicely” but doesn’t seem to contain that rule. Also as posted below, other words fit the parameters. > [@Aspidistra](#): > > So, you would refer to “An Hispanic man”, then? “An Hassidic Rabbi”? “An Hospitable host”? > [@Gary\_T](#): > > From the observation that if the main stress is on, say, the third syllable, then there is usually a secondary stress on the first syllable. This secondary stress would tend to preclude the H going silent. Apparently this is not a hard and fast rule - I can find a little reference to it on the net, but **TWDuke’s** info suggests it hasn’t been universally observed. So the second syllable thing wasn’t part of the conversation, wasn’t included in your link, you haven’t introduced a cite that upholds it and apparently haven’t found one, but you were telling me it would behoove me to learn what I’m writing about before I “rant” or “make foolish comparisons” when posting? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-historic-vs-a-historic/482357/35 "2009-01-22T18:05:44Z")
Is either understandable? _Yes_. Are both in common usage? _Yes._ Thus either is perfectly acceptable. There is no “one right way” in American English. In France they have a Government board that rules on such things. Thank gawd we have no such thing in America. Personally, I think that using “An historic” makes you sound like a twit. It’d be nice if the whole “a/an” thing was dropped, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-historic-vs-a-historic/482357/36 "2009-01-22T19:56:09Z")
> [@parthenokinesis](#): > > Not to stray too far off topic, but a similar trend I’ve noticed recently is to replace the “h” sound with a “y” sound in HU words like humor or huge (yumor or yuge) Is this just a broadcasting thing to keep breath noises off the mike? Cause it’s certainly driving me a bit crazy listening to it. It’s a regional thing, not a broadcasting thing. It’s a feature of some New York City accents. ---
**Author:** ![poker\_in\_the\_rear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/dc4da7/32.png) [@poker\_in\_the\_rear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/poker_in_the_rear)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-historic-vs-a-historic/482357/37 "2009-01-23T00:45:11Z")
Absolutely drives me crazy. ---
**Author:** ![parthenokinesis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/cc9497/32.png) [@parthenokinesis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/parthenokinesis)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-historic-vs-a-historic/482357/38 "2009-01-23T03:58:20Z")
> [@parthenokinesis](#): > > Not to stray too far off topic, but a similar trend I’ve noticed recently is to replace the “h” sound with a “y” sound in HU words like humor or huge (yumor or yuge) Is this just a broadcasting thing to keep breath noises off the mike? Cause it’s certainly driving me a bit crazy listening to it. > [@acsenray](#): > > It’s a regional thing, not a broadcasting thing. It’s a feature of some New York City accents. Ignorance fought. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-historic-vs-a-historic/482357/39 "2009-01-23T04:59:19Z")
> [@seodoa](#): > > A student asks his classmate, “What did you do that for?” > The teacher, hearing this, corrects him, “Never end your sentence with a proposition.” > The student sighs, turns back to the classmate and rephrases: “What did you do that for, huh?” The variant I heard (a long time ago) goes like this: Southern tourist at Harvard University, accosting a student (and speaking in something of a drawl): “Excuse me son, but could you tell me where Widener’s Library is at?” Student (in a very cultured voice): “Sir: at Harvard one learns not to end a sentence with a preposition.” Tourist: “Pardon - allow me to rephrase that: Could you tell me where Widener’s Library is at, asshole?” ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-historic-vs-a-historic/482357/40 "2009-01-23T05:35:27Z")
**lobotomyboy63** , I feel I was unduly snarky. I regret it, and I apologize. I’ll try to shed light on the points you’ve raised. > [@](#): > > **Litoris** did. Yes, he did, and I ignored it. Frankly, I was incredulous. I’ve been in Tennessee, I’ve had an interest in and an ear to language for my fifty-some years, and never heard nor seen any reference to what **Litoris** described. Now I wasn’t there, and it may be an accurate account, but I still can’t believe it. Essentially I was saying, “If we don’t count **Litoris** , no one is suggesting…” > [@](#): > > I’m assuming at this point you’re referring to the link that you posted, saying it “sums it up nicely” but doesn’t seem to contain that [second syllable] rule. The link I posted earlier was merely to explain why “an historic” is sometimes used and accepted. The mention of the second syllable came from memory, but I have found reference to it. From [here](http://www.helium.com/items/853072-should-we-use-the-word-an-or-a-in-front-of-the-word-historic): _However, there is a group of words of three or more syllables with the stress on the second syllable, such as historic, historical, hypothesis, hysterical, habitual, harmonica and hereditary, where people tended to keep using “an” rather than “a”._ From [here](http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:zyMJgYbiKYoJ:www.emwa.org/JournalArticles/JA_V16_I3_Reeves2.pdf+%22an+historic%22+rule+second+syllable+stress&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=16&gl=us): _…I have seen a ‘rule’ in a USA grammar book that you say an historic occasion because the stress is on the second syllable in the word historic, whereas you say a his-tory book because the stress is on the first syllable in the word history…_ > [@](#): > > So the second syllable thing wasn’t part of the conversation, wasn’t included in your link, you haven’t introduced a cite that upholds it and apparently haven’t found one, but you were telling me it would behoove me to learn what I’m writing about before I “rant” or “make foolish comparisons” when posting? :dubious: That’s right, bub, and you better listen up! 😃 Only room for one fool around here, and I’m…hey, wait a minute… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-historic-vs-a-historic/482357.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-historic-vs-a-historic/482357.md?page=3)