# An Homage To Mr. Svinlesha **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 3, 2004, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304 "2004-10-03T08:43:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/21 "2004-10-04T05:14:46Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > What’s left to talk about? The WMDs never materialized. You had your victory already. The only thing left to do is gloat, and that’s just not cool. Using it just for gloating isn’t cool, that’s for sure. However, the lies about WMDs are an important part of the ongoing debate over Iraq and hence an important part of the 2004 election debate. It’s not just gloating. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/22 "2004-10-04T05:21:54Z")
How is it important for the election, especially here? I’m prety sure that with a month to go everyone knows who they’re voting for, and attempting to change the mind of someone like **Mr. Moto** or **Brutus** is an exercise in futility. And now all you have to do is show me where anyone is still claiming that the WMDs existed (other than my wishful thinking in the post above) and I’ll not walk away from this with my sincere apologies. I haven’t seen ANYONE claiming that the WMDs are somewhere to be found in a long time. It’s a dead issue. But by all means, flog the dead horse amongst yourselves. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/23 "2004-10-04T05:23:09Z")
Pardon me. I WILL wak away from this thread with sincere apologies if you can demonstrate to me that someone is still banging the WMD drum. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/24 "2004-10-04T05:40:17Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > Pardon me. I WILL walk away from this thread with sincere apologies if you can demonstrate to me that someone is still banging the WMD drum. The Syrian end of it at least. Here’s John Bolton on September 16th: > [@](#): > > Before I address the specifics of Syria’s WMD programs, let me first discuss press reports that Iraq covertly transferred weapons of mass destruction to Syria in an attempt to hide them from UN inspectors and Coalition forces. We have seen these reports, reviewed them carefully, and see them as cause for concern. Thus far, we have been unable to confirm that such transfers occurred. We are continuing with the full breadth of resources at our command to seek conclusive evidence that any such transfer has taken place. We have raised with the Syrians on numerous occasions, even before military action against Iraq, the seriousness with which we would view any transfer of Iraqi dual-use or military related items into Syria. [Syria’s Weapons of Mass Destruction and Missile Development Programs](http://www.state.gov/t/us/rm/24135.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/25 "2004-10-04T05:47:21Z")
I meant someone here at the SDMB. I’m sure the esteemed Mr. Bolton is not participating here, and therefore is not the target of **RedFury** ’s angst. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/26 "2004-10-04T05:51:57Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > How is it important for the election, especially here? I’m prety sure that with a month to go everyone knows who they’re voting for, and attempting to change the mind of someone like **Mr. Moto** or **Brutus** is an exercise in futility. Well, **Brutus** might be a tough sell, but I still hold out hope for **Mr Moto**. Call me an optimist. There are a lot of honest conservatives out there who just plain do not like the Bush administration, and I believe talking about systematic deception in order to take the nation to war is a topic which might resonate. I do think that the propagation of phoney information about Iraqi WMDs has had major impacts on other, greater threats to the world. These threats include those with proven nuclear capabilities, such as North Korea and Pakistan, who may be selling material and expertise onwards. By crying wolf over Iraq, diverting military and intelligence capacity towards it and squandering diplomatic capital on defending the indefensible, the Bush adminstration has reduced the US’s capacity to deal with these real threats. The lies have had, and will continue to have, colossal knock-on effects. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/27 "2004-10-04T05:54:59Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > The WMDs never materialized. You had your victory already. There is no “victory” until the scoundrels who lied about the WMDs – which subsequently drove the United States into an unnecessary and meaningless war that has resulted in thousands of people dead and many times more permanently maimed – have been exposed to the searing sunlight of truth, and their names forever thrice-damned in history as the immoral bastards that they are. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/28 "2004-10-04T06:18:40Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > **blowero** , I’m confused, is yours some sort of homo-erotic quip? Oh, for the love of… No, OF COURSE not. It was just a joke. I just thought it would be funny, since you were laying it on so thick praise-wise. You know, in a “If you like him so much why don’t you marry him” kind of way. I didn’t even know your gender; how could it possibly have anything to do with homosexuality? For all I knew, you’re a woman and Mr. S is a man. I don’t even know that Mr. S is a man, for that matter, since women sometimes have male-sounding user names. I happen to like Mr. S’s contributions to this forum a lot. It was just a harmless joke relating to the fact that your OP was a little on the toadying side (and that’s of course not to say that Mr. S is not praiseworthy). ---
**Author:** ![Maendosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ebca7d/32.png) [@Maendosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maendosa)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/29 "2004-10-04T06:21:48Z")
I am someone who supported military force to remove Saddam from power - a dictator who had no qualms about the destruction of Iraqis. I am, at the same time, a democrat who did not vote for Bush in 2000, and will not vote for him next month. While I agree that Saddam had to go, I am **offended** that GWB felt he had to **lie** about WMD, about ‘Iraqi involvement’ :rolleyes: in 9/11 and the ‘war on terrorism’ to get my support. Mr. Bush, do you really think I’m **so stupid** as to observe your military actions in Iraq and think that you have a coherent ‘strategy’ as to how to leave the country more stable, and more democratic than we found it? I didn’t believe at the time that there were \*\* OMG SO THREATENING\*\* weapons of mass destruction to be found, but thought that Saddam needed to go. Since then, you’ve not been able to present a coherent plan of withdrawl, nor a plan that even has a prayer of reaching stability in the Middle East, nor even been able to cajole the UN into helping the US. I am left to the conclusion that Bush is one of the most … incoherent presidents with regards to foreign policy **ever**. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/30 "2004-10-04T06:35:42Z")
> [@Maendosa](#): > > I am someone who supported military force to remove Saddam from power - a dictator who had no qualms about the destruction of Iraqis. I totally agree with the rest of your post, but I just wanted to clarify something regarding this first sentence. I don’t think _any_ of us wanted Saddam to stay in power. But those of us who opposed this war did so because we believed that the way Bush was going about it was ill-advised, not because we approved of Saddam. And I think the current mess we find ourselves in has borne out the idea that it _was_ the wrong way to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/31 "2004-10-04T08:25:32Z")
> [@Maendosa](#): > > I am someone who supported military force to remove Saddam from power - a dictator who had no qualms about the destruction of Iraqis. I am, at the same time, a democrat who did not vote for Bush in 2000, and will not vote for him next month. > > While I agree that Saddam had to go, I am **offended** that GWB felt he had to **lie** about WMD, about ‘Iraqi involvement’ :rolleyes: in 9/11 and the ‘war on terrorism’ to get my support. > > Mr. Bush, do you really think I’m **so stupid** as to observe your military actions in Iraq and think that you have a coherent ‘strategy’ as to how to leave the country more stable, and more democratic than we found it? … Actually it is always a mystery to me. A large section of the most reliable votes for Bush come from people he plainly despises. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/32 "2004-10-04T08:44:10Z")
Bah! While I’m certain Mr. Svinlesha is overjoyed that should he ever have a need to get his cock sucked or arse kissed you’d be there on a tick with a “shank sou _gulp_ anything else sir?” – what specifically is it you loathe about open discussion that you feel an irresistible urge to start a pit thread at the mere suggestion of a view not your own? Is it that you think SDMB would be better off without the likes of Sam Stone, Scylla, and Shodan and their audacity to think what you do not? Perhaps you think what is needed is more rjungs and readers, bush-the-chimp jokes and Halliburton stupidity? Meanwhile outside your yes-me-too utopian dream, perhaps we can agree that until this, perhaps surprisingly large, percentage of Americans who think the war was justified have been re-educated, discussing it is a good thing? What the fuck is about people who can’t have a discussion on a discussion board without rushing out to open pit-threads at the slightest disagreements? Fucking moron. Knep en ged! Vas te faire enculer! ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/33 "2004-10-04T09:55:49Z")
> [@Maendosa](#): > > While I agree that Saddam had to go, I am **offended** that GWB felt he had to **lie** about WMD, about ‘Iraqi involvement’ :rolleyes: in 9/11 and the ‘war on terrorism’ to get my support. For the 7, 838th time…he didn’t “feel” he had to lie, he didn’t contrive to lie, and he didn’t lie! What is the matter with you people? Are you like Michael Moore on O’Reilly’s show and claiming Bush lied because he said something that, contrary to all evidence, “wasn’t so,” and therefore, ipso facto, he lied? Or are you still claiming that he deliberately and cunningly decided to concoct a lie just to get the gullible American people to play along while he went charging off to avenge daddy? For crying out loud! Russia thought he had WMD; the British thought he had WMD; every country in the Middle East thought he had WMD; the U frickin’ N thought he had WMD; the FBI thought he had WMD; the CIA thought he had WMD; and _Bill Clinton himself_, as he has recently stated, thought Hussein had WMD. But no! Bush was smarter than all of them and knew better, but he decided that since everyone thought Hussein had WMD anyway, what a perfect time to get even for daddy and make Halliburton rich. What a load of hooey!!! (And spare me the “France knew they didn’t have WMD” argument. France knew no such thing. They were playing the “Iraq hasn’t been proven to have WMD” card so they could continue business as usual with Hussein and so they could be perceived as standing up to the U.S.) Oppose Bush if you want and all you want, but when you pull out this “Bush lied to get us into war” talk, you sound like a close-minded partisan automoton. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/34 "2004-10-04T09:58:23Z")
Oh, sorry, **Mr. Svin**. I forgot what thread I was in. I know you hate the term “WMD” and I’m sorry to inflict it on you so many times in one post. Had I remembered this wasn’t yet another Bush-bashing thread but one dedicated to you, I would have tried phrasing my post differently. Regards. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/35 "2004-10-04T10:45:32Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > What is the matter with you people? Are you like Michael Moore on O’Reilly’s show and claiming Bush lied because he said something that, contrary to all evidence, “wasn’t so,” and therefore, ipso facto, he lied? Of course he did — just like Copernicus lied about Mars’ orbit, and Newton lied about the absoluteness of time. And don’t forget those lying NY radio disc jockeys just after sunrise on 9/1/01. Beautiful day my ass. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/36 "2004-10-04T12:37:01Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > For the 7, 838th time…he didn’t “feel” he had to lie, he didn’t contrive to lie, and he didn’t lie! > > What is the matter with you people? Are you like Michael Moore on O’Reilly’s show and claiming Bush lied because he said something that, contrary to all evidence, “wasn’t so,” and therefore, ipso facto, he lied? Or are you still claiming that he deliberately and cunningly decided to concoct a lie just to get the gullible American people to play along while he went charging off to avenge daddy? > > For crying out loud! Russia thought he had WMD; the British thought he had WMD; every country in the Middle East thought he had WMD; the U frickin’ N thought he had WMD; the FBI thought he had WMD; the CIA thought he had WMD; and _Bill Clinton himself_, as he has recently stated, thought Hussein had WMD. Non sequitur. That is not why people say he lied. Got that? Here, I’ll repeat. It is not the saying “I believe…” It is the “I know…”. Any questions? Of course not. Morons. Yes you too **Liberal**. Then of course, there are the other documented Bush lies. But go vote for him, he’s a man after your own heart. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/37 "2004-10-04T14:13:40Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > For crying out loud! Russia thought he had WMD; the British thought he had WMD; every country in the Middle East thought he had WMD; the U frickin’ N thought he had WMD; the FBI thought he had WMD; the CIA thought he had WMD; and _Bill Clinton himself_, as he has recently stated, thought Hussein had WMD. They all thought it was _possible_. They all were honest enough to admit they didn’t know for sure. That’s what the inspections were all about, remember? The ones Bush wouldn’t allow three damn more weeks to be completed when it was already pretty clear what the findings would be? Oh yeah, Bush thought Iraq had WMD’s. Woulda been nice to have actually paid some attention to those sites when the troops got there, instead of letting them be looted first, wouldn’t it? Which is that, simple numbing incompetence, or already knowing there was no shit there anyway? There aren’t any other possibilities, are there? Are you in favor of being as sure as possible of the facts before you send people off to get killed, or are you simply a blind partisan? Before you answer, note that this board is about \*fighting \* ignorance. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/38 "2004-10-04T16:41:57Z")
**Airman** , As others have already mentioned, this thread has nothing to do with “gloating” but rather with the unfinished task of Fighting Ignorance – willful or otherwise. As it happens, there are still plenty of people out there – and here – defending the pack of lies that led to the bloody quagmire in Iraq. Why just this past week, both Chaney and Rice vigorously argued in favor of such debunked Bushit as Saddam’s ties to AQ and the validity of the aluminum tubes evidence. Just the kind of thing that resonates with the locksteppers here. Mind you, this isn’t _just_ about the WMDs, but rather an all-encompassing indictment to those that still feel the need to defend the Bush Administration and their pack of _demonstrable_ lies. Nothing in the “past” about that since they continue to do so to this very day. And considering that the upcoming election is likely to affect th erest of the world like no other US election in my lifetime, you betcha, I’ll do everything possible to keep it front and center, reminding those that need reminding and exposing those that need exposing, of all the lies and misrepresentations that have led us to this point. To wit: > [@Starving](#): > > For the 7, 838th time…he didn’t “feel” he had to lie, he didn’t contrive to lie, and he didn’t lie! > > \ > > What a load of hooey!!! Indeed. That is exactly what you’re full of. Because as **sevatopol** has already pointed out, there’s a vast difference between “thinking” Iraq had WMDs, and leading an invasion under the _certainty_ that not only they did, but that they “presented an imminent threat,” to the US of A. Both of which are flat out fuckin’ LIES now, as much as they were LIES when they were first uttered. And if a lying weasel such as yourself wants to get into the specifics of any of the claims, well, right here is as good a place as any. ## Bring it on, Big Boy! Plenty of Weapons of Massive Truth on this side. **Rune** , did you remember to shave your skull this morning? No? Good litttle soldier. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/39 "2004-10-04T17:08:56Z")
> [@Bush](#): > > Al-Qaeda hides, Saddam doesn’t, but the danger is, is that they work in concert. The danger is that al-Qaeda becomes an extension of Saddam’s madness and his hatred and his capacity to extend weapons of mass destruction around the world…\*\* You can’t distinguish between al-Qaeda and Saddam when you talk about the war on terror… They’re both equally as bad, and equally as evil, and equally as destructive. (my bolding)\*\* – September 25, 2002 Plenty more where that came from. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/40 "2004-10-04T17:12:06Z")
> [@Sevestapol](#): > > Non sequitur. > > That is not why people say he lied. Got that? > > Here, I’ll repeat. It is not the saying “I believe…” > > It is the “I know…”. > > Any questions? Yeah, I got one. Was Hillary Clinton lying when she said this? > [@](#): > > “It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capability to wage biological and chemical warfare and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East which, as we know all too well, affects American security. **This much is undisputed.** ” — October 10, 2002. (Emphasis mine.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304.md?page=3)