# An Homage To Mr. Svinlesha **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 3, 2004, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304 "2004-10-03T08:43:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/81 "2004-10-05T15:47:31Z")
Well, not much point in debunking **Starving’s** steaming pile (and to think these are the same people that had a field day with the infamous “depends on what the meaning of is, is.”), for it has been done quite throughly already. Never mind that all he had to do was click on the link to the NYT article linked by yours truly on the first page. Nope, evidently, many Bushoviks have a built-in aversion for reality and need to be spoon-fed the truth quote by quote. None the less I do thank him for unabashedly providing The Ignorance I wrote about in the OP. Would that the other, more stablished True Believers, were as brazen as he. A certain disingenously ‘polite’ Canadian comes to mind – he was only good for a lame drive by. And of course, we have this gem coming to us by the priviledged intellect of **New Isk** : > [@](#): > > RF’s posts are shorter and occasionally entertaining [Joe Pesci/Goodfellas] :::_I’m funny how? I mean funny like I’m a clown, I amuse you?..Funny how? How am I funny?_::: [/Joe Pesci] In that vein, I leave The Lemmings with the following quotes – for amusement purposes of course: > [@](#): > > On March 30, 2003, Secretary Rumsfeld proclaimed that the administration “_**knows where [Iraq’s WMDs] are. They are in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat.**_” > [@](#): > > In September 2002, Bush claimed an International Atomic Energy Agency report stated that Iraq was “_**six months away from developing a [nuclear] weapon.**_” (SOU) > [@](#): > > Speaking of the inclusion of the Niger uranium in the 2003 State of the Union speech, Dr. Rice indicated, “_ **had there been even a peep that the agency did not want that sentence in or that George Tenet did not want that sentence in, that the Director of Central Intelligence not want it in, it would have been gone** _.” > [@](#): > > Secretary Powell told the UN Security Council that solid intelligence supports “_ **our conservative estimate is that Iraq today has a stockpile of between 100 and 500 tons of chemical weapons agent. That’s enough to fill 16,000 battlefield rockets.** _” Powell even specified the bunkers where they were located. Nope, no lies or fearmongering there. None at all. Then again , when you’re done spinning those, I’m fairly sure I can come up with a few more. Bottom line: hard as it might be to accept, the verdict’s been in for quite some time. When you vote for BushCo, you’re voting for demonstrable liers. Live with it. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/82 "2004-10-05T16:59:29Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > :::_I’m funny how? I mean funny like I’m a clown, I amuse you?..Funny how? How am I funny?_::: When **Red Fury** decides to get down on his knees before **Mr. Svinlesha** and proceeds to to do it - of all possible forums - in the Pit, what can be funnier? > [@RedFury](#): > > Bottom line: hard as it might be to accept, the verdict’s been in for quite some time. When you vote for BushCo, you’re voting for demonstrable liers. Live with it. Don’t get sidetracked. Your stated intention for opening this thread was to fellate **MrS** , so please stick to the subject. Most entertaining. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/83 "2004-10-05T17:50:26Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Don’t get sidetracked. Your stated intention for opening this thread was to fellate **MrS** , so please stick to the subject. Most entertaining. There’s that famed Wingnut Ignorance I keep referring to. Because if **Isk** had actually bothered to read the OP (what a concept, I know) he would have realized that the ‘fellatio’ was restricted to a sentence or two. The rest – and main thrust of same – was actually directed at people just like him. To wit: > [@RedFury](#): > > what and whom I _am_ pitting, are all those _obviously mislead_ and right down **disingenuous** posters that continue to back the demonstrable sham that is is the Iraq invasion and continuing occupation. > > A BIG ‘fuck you’ to each and everyone of you. For those of you that held on to the illusion of an ultimatedly ‘benevolent’ policy towards Iraq and the ensuing ‘spreading of democracy’ all over the MENA region, are either delusional or right down uninformed. In either case, you remain _completely_ wrong – and if you’re posting here, you have almost no excuse to keep thinking that way. Unless your only interest is mindless and pointless stuff. As for the other, the ideologues – and you know who you are – and even heartier **fuck you** , for if there’s anything clearer that your plan won’t work, is the fact that more and more people are dying on a day to day basis. So here’s a very personal **FUCK YOU** for my dear friend – and fan – **New Iskander**. My pleasure. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/84 "2004-10-05T17:52:22Z")
PS-About those quotes I posted? Care to spin them for us? Talk about “entertainment.” ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/85 "2004-10-05T18:01:05Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > The alleged psychic is John **Edward**. Oops. Thank you. :o ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/86 "2004-10-05T19:00:56Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Well, not much point in debunking **Starving’s** steaming pile (and to think these are the same people that had a field day with the infamous “depends on what the meaning of is, is.”), for it has been done quite throughly already. Hardly. A pick-and-choose attempt at refutation was made by **blowhard** , er, uh… **blowero** , but it was more of the same old blinders-on bullshit he was spouting previously and I thought I’d just let his post stand as its own refutation. One can’t teach a pig to sing; it only frustrates you and annoys the pig. It’s not surprising that a like-minded lackey such as yourself would view his post as the final word on the subject, but such is hardly the case. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/87 "2004-10-05T20:28:57Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > PS-About those quotes I posted? Care to spin them for us? I have no desire to “spin” anything because in principle I might agree with you (correcting for all the important qualifications advanced by **Starving Artist** and others): _Bush may have Lied_. I can’t dispute your premise, because I have my own geo-political super-duper-conspiratorial theory base on the same premise. So every time I hear someone say, “Bush Lied”, I prick my ears and ask, “Why?”, hoping for a chance to exchange opinions. But here comes the trouble: there never follows any development to the original statement; no hidden reasons exposed, no prescient analysis proferred, nothing that would help to understand anything. It always goes something like this: _Bush Lied!_ - Yes? _Bush Lied!_ - So? _Bush Lied!_ - And? _Bush Lied!_ - Don’t hold back now… _Bush Lied!_ - Please do go on… _Bush Lied!_ - Out with it! **Bush Bad!** - Oh! Why? _Bush Lied!_ * * * It’s like talking to a bird… So please forgive me for getting irritable. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/88 "2004-10-05T20:45:40Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Hardly. A pick-and-choose attempt at refutation was made by **blowhard** , er, uh… **blowero** , but it was more of the same old blinders-on bullshit he was spouting previously and I thought I’d just let his post stand as its own refutation. One can’t teach a pig to sing; it only frustrates you and annoys the pig. It’s not surprising that a like-minded lackey such as yourself would view his post as the final word on the subject, but such is hardly the case. Yeah, when you lose the argument on the facts, resort to making fun of the user name. Real classy…:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/89 "2004-10-05T21:43:44Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > So every time I hear someone say, “Bush Lied”, I prick my ears and ask, “Why?”, hoping for a chance to exchange opinions. But here comes the trouble: there never follows any development to the original statement; no hidden reasons exposed, no prescient analysis proferred, nothing that would help to understand anything. Well, you know why this is? It’s because no one can _prove_ anything! No one here truly knows that Bush lied…they only believe he did, even though they are certain of that belief and feel they have evidence to support that belief; those on the opposite side don’t know for certain that he didn’t lie…but we are certain in our belief. Each side knows the other can’t possibly know for sure what they’re claiming, and therefore neither side has credibility with the other. Pull out all the so-called facts, quotes and official opinions you want on either side, and the other side either refuses to believe them, or they think that other factors enter into it to support their own side. Thus you get little but “did too,” “did not,” arguments as to whether Bush actually lied or not. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/90 "2004-10-05T21:47:51Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Yeah, when you lose the argument on the facts, resort to making fun of the user name. Real classy…:rolleyes: Well, I’m sorry. This is the Pit you know, and you’ve hardly been gracious in your estimation of me. However, you truly do sound wounded. I had expected you would just snort and blow it off. If you have taken my little insult to heart, I apologize. (I really do!) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/91 "2004-10-05T21:57:28Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Well, you know why this is? It’s because no one can prove anything! No one here truly knows that Bush lied…they only believe he did, even though they are certain of that belief and feel they have evidence to support that belief; those on the opposite side don’t know for certain that he didn’t lie…but we are certain in our belief. Each side knows the other can’t possibly know for sure what they’re claiming, and therefore neither side has credibility with the other. Pull out all the so-called facts, quotes and official opinions you want on either side, and the other side either refuses to believe them, or they think that other factors enter into it to support their own side. Are you high? You haven’t provided one iota of evidence, while Mr. S had _inundated_ you with it. While I disagree with Airman, Sam Stone, etc., at least they bring something to the table. All you’ve got are strawmen and name-calling. You say “Pull out all the so-called facts, quotes and official opinions you want on either side”. Problem is, you haven’t done ANY of that. > [@](#): > > Well, I’m sorry. This is the Pit you know, and you’ve hardly been gracious in your estimation of me. However, you truly do sound wounded. I had expected you would just snort and blow it off. If you have taken my little insult to heart, I apologize. (I really do!) 🙂 Doesn’t bother me; just makes _you_ look like a jackass. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/92 "2004-10-05T22:06:46Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Are you high? You haven’t provided one iota of evidence, while Mr. S had _inundated_ you with it. While I disagree with Airman, Sam Stone, etc., at least they bring something to the table. All you’ve got are strawmen and name-calling. You say “Pull out all the so-called facts, quotes and official opinions you want on either side”. Problem is, you haven’t done ANY of that. And for the reason I just said. Your quotes (nor **Mr. S**.’) don’t convice me; none of mine would convince you. Fighting ignorance is all well and good when conclusive and incontrovertible proof can be brought to bear on the issue in question; it cannot be said the ignorance is being fought when it’s just a pissing contest between who can come up with the best quotes to bolster their own side. The bottom line is no one knows what Bush’s thoughts were because we’re not inside his head, therefore all we can do is try to figure it out, thus we have these arguments. > [@blowero](#): > > Doesn’t bother me; just makes _you_ look like a jackass. Whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/93 "2004-10-05T22:12:28Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Well, you know why this is? It’s because no one can _prove_ anything! No one here truly knows that Bush lied…they only believe he did, even though they are certain of that belief and feel they have evidence to support that belief; those on the opposite side don’t know for certain that he didn’t lie…but we are certain in our belief. Each side knows the other can’t possibly know for sure what they’re claiming, and therefore neither side has credibility with the other. Pull out all the so-called facts, quotes and official opinions you want on either side, and the other side either refuses to believe them, or they think that other factors enter into it to support their own side. I hate to break in on such a lovely post-modernist “[There ain’t no good guy, there ain’t no bad guy, there’s only you and me and we just disagree](http://ntl.matrix.com.br/pfilho/html/lyrics/w/we_just_disagree.txt)” moment, but there are actually facts to be presented. Several posters, notably **SimonX** , have extensively researched the process used by the Pentagon Office of Special Plans to justify the war in Iraq. If you haven’t read those threads I linked to one of them just a few posts ago. In the meantime please feel free to continue to assert that no one KNOWS anything. It is true of at least one person in the discussion. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/94 "2004-10-05T22:14:33Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > And for the reason I just said. Your quotes (nor **Mr. S**.’) don’t convice me; none of mine would convince you. Fighting ignorance is all well and good when conclusive and incontrovertible proof can be brought to bear on the issue in question; it cannot be said the ignorance is being fought when it’s just a pissing contest between who can come up with the best quotes to bolster their own side. The bottom line is no one knows what Bush’s thoughts were because we’re not inside his head, therefore all we can do is try to figure it out, thus we have these arguments. > Whatever. What a load of horseshit. Keep it coming; this is really entertaining. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/95 "2004-10-05T22:16:14Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > In the meantime please feel free to continue to assert that no one KNOWS anything. It is true of at least one person in the discussion. > > Enjoy, > Steven Damn - that was much better than my response. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/96 "2004-10-05T23:43:09Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Thus you get little but “did too,” “did not,” arguments as to whether Bush actually lied or not. I agree with you in that it is dishonest to blame a man for acting on information everybody else accepted as Holy Truth. There was no dissenting opinion about Saddam and his dirty tricks anywhere in the whole world before Bush invaded Iraq. Not a single person ever said, “That Hussy, he’s all show and no threat, let’s cut him loose”, for 10 years. Why, if Bush didn’t act, same people would castigate him for doing nothing about Saddam. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/97 "2004-10-05T23:59:20Z")
Exactly, **New Iskander**. A very good point…and very well said. I recall during the period of time following 9/11 and during the early days of the Iraqi war when everyone on the Democrat side was wringing their hands over how to oppose Bush. He had huge support and his approval rating was very high. They weren’t concerned so much about what was wrong with Bush, just how to oppose him. In other words, it didn’t really matter whether Bush was doing the right thing or not, it just mattered that a way be found to oppose him. This POV, which seems to exist primarily among the Democrat party is exactly, what caused me to align myself with the Republicans some 35 years ago. Republicans seem to do what they think is right; Democrats seem to be guided only by the need to oppose them. It also means that on those occaisions when Republicans are right, Democrats are by definition wrong. Such is the case now. Once upon a time, everyone thought Hussein was a threat. The appropriate action was taken, and now that a chink has appeared in the form of no WMD, the Democrats have found what they perceive as a safe way to lambaste the president. And one of the ways they do this is by trying to portray him as a liar. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/98 "2004-10-06T00:01:39Z")
And by the same token, if no action had been taken he would have been castigated for that, just as you said. Again, it’s simply a case of oppose the president regardless of the position he takes. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/99 "2004-10-06T00:17:19Z")
> [@](#): > > This POV, which seems to exist primarily among the Democrat party is exactly, what caused me to align myself with the Republicans some 35 years ago. Republicans seem to do what they think is right; Democrats seem to be guided only by the need to oppose them. It also means that on those occaisions when Republicans are right, Democrats are by definition wrong. Seems to me that this exact paragraph (barring your particular 35 year alignment) could be written, exchanging the words “Democrat” and “Republican” and carry exactly the same value of truth. I clearly remember Gingrich and company lining up to oppose Clinton at every step of every policy he advocated. On health care, they were natural opponents, but on issues of national security, trade agreements, and other ssues, I received a lot of RNC literature explaining how “we” had to oppose Clinton from the get go and I recall seeing the same stuff against Carter in my Mom’s house when I visited. (Regardless how one feels about Carter and Clinton, they each advocated _some_ policies that were in line with Republican goals and they were as fiercely opposed (for the purpose of making them fail) as Reagan and the Bushes ever were by the Democrats.) We’re back to gored oxen and silly claims that only “the other guy” behaves “that way.” ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/100 "2004-10-06T00:40:47Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > So, you’re saying that Hillary intended her summary assertion — “This much is undisputed.” — to apply only to bits and pieces of words and phrases from what she had just said? I can accept that. She is nothing if not conniving and dishonest. Incidentally, you left the subject out of your condescending attempt at a bitch-slap. If you’re going to pretend to be superior, you need at least to proofread your sissy-ass scribbles. A lecture on pretending to be superior? Direct from the source, I’ll treasure it. My abbreviated sentence was more of a Freudian slip, I’m repelled at some visceral level from referring to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304.md?page=6)