# An Homage To Mr. Svinlesha **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 3, 2004, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304 "2004-10-03T08:43:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/101 "2004-10-06T02:34:19Z")
Your points are valid, **Tom**. I started to point out in my last post that this type of thing seems to be intentional on the part of our founding fathers. Perhaps its for the greater overall good for the country that there be two opposing parties, but it certainly is off-putting to see opposition for its own sake. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/102 "2004-10-06T03:49:05Z")
It is certainly heartening to see that **Starv** and **New Isk** have managed to resolve thier differences about whom agrees with the other more completely. It is exactly these sharp and cogent airing of differences that has made the Republican Party so inclusive and comprehensive: a healthy willingness to accept the failings and faults of one’s political opponents with openness and candor. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/103 "2004-10-06T05:04:07Z")
You are much less in evidence these days **luci** , and you seem to have lost some of your sharpness and wit. Is everything okay with you? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/104 "2004-10-06T05:13:38Z")
I have lately been afflicted with spasms of hopeful optimism, which interferes with mordant wit. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/105 "2004-10-06T05:22:09Z")
Good, I’m glad it’s not something more serious. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/106 "2004-10-06T13:06:00Z")
Well, yeh, but what if Kerry wins, our allies say “Whoopee!” and join us in salvaging Iraq, the economy leaps into high gear, and The Finance Fairy abolishes the deficit? What then, **luci**? Will you implode? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/107 "2004-10-06T15:33:20Z")
Gloat. Lord it over. A mighty baritone chorus of “Neener-neener”, to the tune of Beethoven’s _Ode to Joy_, and a hangover that would kill a Tyrannosaurus. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/108 "2004-10-06T16:42:52Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Gloat. Lord it over. A mighty baritone chorus of “Neener-neener”, to the tune of Beethoven’s _Ode to Joy_, and a hangover that would kill a Tyrannosaurus. Better give it another thought. You sure you want your guy there, starving the elderly and murdering women and children? Because world is not going to change and some issues won’t go away, whoever the President. There still be some starving and murdering to be done. Except you won’t have the luxury to bitch and moan about it. Think how good you got it right now. You can derive full protection from Patriot Act and castigate Bush for not repealing it, all at the same time. Your guy is Prez, you’ll have to sweat, and reason, and comprehend, and explain things. And guess who’s gonna do the “Neener-neener” song? Hint, not you and yours. Hark, learn you will what real frustration is! And then what you gonna do? Beat your wife? Kick your dog? Call me names? Think it over… ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/109 "2004-10-06T16:49:03Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > And then what you gonna do? Beat your wife? Kick your dog? Call me names? > > Think it over… I’ll call you names, but that has more to do with your idiocy than the outcome of the election. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/110 "2004-10-06T17:23:49Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > I agree with you in that it is dishonest to blame a man for acting on information everybody else accepted as Holy Truth. There was no dissenting opinion about Saddam and his dirty tricks anywhere in the whole world before Bush invaded Iraq. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > The appropriate action was taken Apparently 2 + 2 = 738. All the sloppy thinking and glossing over of the actual nuances of the situation necessary to produce those statements could fill the grand canyon. I hold nothing against those who engage in [Rational Ignorance](http://ingrimayne.saintjoe.edu/econ/LogicOfChoice/RatIgnorance.html). Reading dozens, hundreds, possibly thousands of pages of reports and intelligence estimates about Iraq, specifically WMD status, is not for everyone. Working at the single significant digit figure is necessary to keep from information overload. What is indefensible is continuing to assert that your assessment, based on sound bytes, is correct and every bit as accurate as other analysis, which digs much deeper into the actual situation. It is the height of arrogance for the sound-byte crowd to hand-wave deep analysis as “so-called facts, quotes and official opinions”. This is not rational ignorance, this is [willful ignorance](http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/10101). In other news, [a transcript of a White House Q&A session by official spokesman Scott McClellan](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/09/20040917-9.html) > [@](#): > > Q They haven’t found any weapons. Does the administration think that we should continue to look? > > MR. McCLELLAN: Well, the work of the Iraq Survey Group continues. There – as Charles – > > Q Do you think – > > MR. McCLELLAN: Well, Charles Duelfer has said that. It’s important to learn the facts and learn – we know that he had weapons of mass destruction because he had used them. And so that work continues. And Charles Duelfer is the one who will make determination when that work is complete. But it’s important – it’s important to learn the facts. There’s been a lot of speculation about what happened to them. > > Q So the President would like to see them continue to look? > > MR. McCLELLAN: That’s what the Iraq Survey Group is doing, Deb. Well, the Iraq Survey Group has finished their primary work and present the official findings today. [Charles Duelfer, the CIA special adviser who led the hunt for weapons of mass destruction](http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=6430642) has finalized the report and the results look very interesting. > [@](#): > > Iraq had no stockpiles of biological and chemical weapons before last year’s U.S.-led invasion and its nuclear program had decayed since the 1991 Gulf War, a weapons inspector [Charles Duelfer] appointed by the Bush administration said on Wednesday. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/111 "2004-10-06T17:35:18Z")
Tell you what I’m gonna do, **Isky**. I’m gonna give your nasty little splurge more fair attention than it deserves. Whoever takes the oath in January is facing a world of shit, and largely due to the ham-fisted and clumsy pooch-screwing of the current Admin. No, a golden age is not in the offing, Kerry would be bringing a lot of heavy baggage in with him and our prospects are, frankly, bleak. We have pissed off just about everybody we need on our side. We did just about everything precisely according to ObL’s expectations. I won’t even go in to the economics side, economics makes my head hurt. But if GW squeeks out even the most marginal victory, he will proceed as though he were handed a landslide mandate. Hell, he did this time even when he _lost_ the popular vote! So, no, I’m not expecting a miracle, only to stanch the bleeding before it gets worse. If I placed partisanship above my patriotism, I might be tempted to a sanguine complacency about a Pubbie win, four more years of this shit, and no Republican will be electable for years. But we _need_ an honest conservative party, we need a counter-balance for negotiation and argument, if only to keep our fuzzier elements in check. We are, after all, human. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/112 "2004-10-06T17:51:42Z")
The following excerpt is dedicated to those of you that continue to assert that “everyone looked at the same evidence and agreed”: [**President remains ignorant of military criticism**](http://www.usavanguard.com/vnews/display.v?TARGET=printable&article_id=4162c366d08ad) > [@](#): > > In the first debate between John Kerry and George Bush last Thursday, the president continually repeated his claim that to criticize his record in Iraq was the same as undercutting the troops fighting overseas. But what does he say to those in the military who feel the same way? > > Former Gen. Anthony Zinni, who ran Central Command (CENTCOM) before serving as Bush’s envoy to the Middle East, has co-written a book with Tom Clancy, “Battle Ready,” about his 40 years of public service. **“In the lead up to the Iraq war and its later conduct,” he writes, "I saw at a minimum, true dereliction, negligence and irresponsibility, at worse, lying, incompetence and corruption."** > > CBS News, reporting on Zinni’s comments, added, **“former General and National Security Advisor Brent Scowcroft, former CENTCOM Commander Norman Schwarzkopf, former NATO Commander Wesley Clark, and former Army Chief of Staff Eric Shinseki all voiced their reservations” about invading Iraq.** > > \*\*Bob Woodward reports that Colin Powell considered talk of invasion “lunacy.” \*\*Former Sen. Bob Graham says that even former Gen. Tommy Franks, who was tasked with revising invasion plans to use one-fourth as many soldiers as was recommended, thought it was a bad idea, a diversion from the war against terrorism. They were all ignored by the Bush administration, but the criticism has continued as Bush has proven to be an astonishingly incompetent “war president.” (my emphasis) Now, I realize that anything and everything said here falls largely on deaf ears as pertains to the Bush lemmings, for thruth is indeed a stranger to conviction. But it still needs to be said. Over and over and over and again if need be. And it does. You’re voting for a proven liar, a man whose lies have brought death to thousands upon thousands of innocents – and for what? Let your conscience deal with it – if you have one. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/113 "2004-10-06T20:18:24Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Whoever takes the oath in January is facing a world of shit, and largely due to the ham-fisted and clumsy pooch-screwing of the current Admin. No, a golden age is not in the offing, Kerry would be bringing a lot of heavy baggage in with him and our prospects are, frankly, bleak. You know, I’m beginning to warm up to the prospect of Democratic administration. Brings back memories. Such as aged gawky woman with huge glasses, chatting with Barbara Walters about home-made jam recipes, while Waco ruins still smoldering. _Janet_, I think the name was. And don’t even talk to me about dead soldiers. It is in POTUS job description to send soldiers to death; it is not in that description to kill US citizens. How many US women and children Bush shot in cold blood and burned to death? > [@elucidator](#): > > We did just about everything precisely according to ObL’s expectations. How many Al Qaidians did Clinton kill? > [@elucidator](#): > > But if GW squeeks out even the most marginal victory, he will proceed as though he were handed a landslide mandate. Hell, he did this time even when he _lost_ the popular vote! This is too stupid even for your retarded synapses. The reason Bush asserting full powers of the office is for the sake of the office. So that next time your President squeaks in by hook or crook, he will be not limited in his powers by precedent. This whole country depends on it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/114 "2004-10-06T20:45:50Z")
Well, I tried. **Isky** is determined to paint a brown portrait with his own logorrhea. Can’t help it, I guess. And I admit to being somewhat off-target, thinking this was about Bush, Kerry, and Iraq, when its _really_ about Janet Reno and David Koresh. Tell you what, shit-for-brains, next office Clinton runs for, I’m voting against him. Just for you. Right now, however, I’m kind of absorbed in the present moment, you know? A President who invades countries on the basis of info he pulls out of his ass. And now that you mention it, how many women and children dead because of GeeDubya? Several thousand. We don’t have an exact count because, well, they’re collatteral damage. Numbers get fuzzy when you don’t give a shit. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/115 "2004-10-06T22:27:33Z")
That’s my Luci! ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/116 "2004-10-06T22:31:57Z")
Yeah, now you sound more like your old self, **luci**. Good on ya! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/117 "2004-10-06T23:21:58Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > And don’t even talk to me about dead soldiers. It is in POTUS job description to send soldiers to death; It is the military’s job to defend the country. This country. It is the President’s job to make sure the military is fighting a “just war”, not a war of political expediency, or to settle a family feud, or so the Pres can think he is a bad ass at the expense of the soldiers that get killed. It is the President’s job to make sure the military has the support, tools and budgeting to fight. It is also the President’s job to get the hell out of the way and let the professionals handle it (Admirals and Generals), without tying their fucking hands by trying to do it “on the cheap”. By the way, the report was released (it’s in another thread) and it says No Weapons Of Mass Destruction. As someone who once was in this military, if only for four years, I say to you shut the hell up. You’re pretty damn cavalier about someone else’s lives. If you really believe what you say, then get your ass down to the enlistment office. You talked the talk, now walk the walk. Talk is cheap. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/118 "2004-10-07T01:37:32Z")
Murder of civilians on American soil by US gov’t is a much bigger outrage then making mistakes in organizing military expedition to free a foreign country from a murderous despot. These two things have nothing in common. ---
**Author:** ![Incubus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c68b51/32.png) [@Incubus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incubus)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/119 "2004-10-07T01:44:25Z")
_commences uncontrollable piffling_ ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/120 "2004-10-07T01:53:26Z")
In fact, murdering US civilians and liberating foreign countries from fascistic regimes are _antithetical_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304.md?page=7)