# An Homage To Mr. Svinlesha **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 3, 2004, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304 "2004-10-03T08:43:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/121 "2004-10-07T02:30:37Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Murder of civilians on American soil by US gov’t is a much bigger outrage then making mistakes in organizing military expedition to free a foreign country from a murderous despot. These two things have nothing in common. Yea, I’m sure those thousands of Iraqi civilians, many of them children, who died [collateral damage in Bushspeak] felt really grateful just before the bombs hit them, both for Bush invading their country, and for bombing them into oblivion. ---
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/122 "2004-10-07T02:35:45Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Murder of civilians on American soil by US gov’t is a much bigger outrage then making mistakes in organizing military expedition to free a foreign country from a murderous despot. These two things have nothing in common. Oh, and I forgot to ask why murdering American civilians is a \*\*‘much bigger outrage’ \*\* than murdering over 3 times as many Iraqi civilians? Is one live American worth more, in your eyes, than three live Iraqis? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/123 "2004-10-07T04:09:17Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Murder of civilians on American soil by US gov’t is a much bigger outrage then making mistakes in organizing military expedition to **free a foreign country from a murderous despot**.(my bolding) Go peddle your Bushit elsewhere – in case you haven’t noticed, no one’s buying it here. Greed, ideology, delusions of grandeur, a bevy of lies and fearmogering, _that’s_ what got you into Iraq. Bucketfuls of blood – mostly the Iraqi’s, but plenty of yours as well – is what’s going to get you out. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/124 "2004-10-07T06:52:06Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Greed, ideology, delusions of grandeur, a bevy of lies and fearmogering, _that’s_ what got you into Iraq. Funny and sad. You keep yelling at me and I don’t even disagree with you. I’m only saying that there is a bigger picture, where “_Greed, ideology, delusions of grandeur, a bevy of lies and fearmogering_” pretty much covers all the goings on in the whole world. If Bush lied, then everybody lied: Clinton, Gore, Chiraq, Shroeder, Blix, Annan, Putin and the whole Chinese politburo. If liberation of Iraq was a mistake, then 12 years of sanctions were a mistake, then liberation of Kuwait was a mistake… ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/125 "2004-10-07T08:29:53Z")
By my count, the elaboration of how, when and where GWB and co. lied has been made no less than 6 times on this board, without serious rebuttal. No doubt _New Iskander_ has encountered the occasion at least once. However, I have never seen any argument that the good doctor Blix or many other of the names mentioned were equally wedded to dishonesty. Indeed Dr. Blix stands as a titan of honesty, in amongst pygmies. And what vile slurs his reputation endured. Has there since been any retraction or apology, any acknowledgement of his exemplary service? Shame on you _New Iskander_. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/126 "2004-10-07T11:29:41Z")
> [@sevastopol](#): > > Indeed Dr. Blix stands as a titan of honesty, in amongst pygmies. > > And what vile slurs his reputation endured. Has there since been any retraction or apology, any acknowledgement of his exemplary service? No retractions, no apologies. You will never see any either, because that would imply he was right. Deny deny deny. Spin Spin Spin. Stay steadfast. Resolve. Don’t let facts get in the way. Where are my strawberries. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/127 "2004-10-07T11:39:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Ahh, but the strawberries that’s… that’s where I had them. They laughed at me and made jokes but I proved beyond the shadow of a doubt and with… geometric logic… that a duplicate key to the wardroom icebox DID exist, and I’d have produced that key … !! ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/128 "2004-10-07T11:39:48Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Murder of civilians on American soil by US gov’t is a much bigger outrage then making mistakes in organizing military expedition to free a foreign country from a murderous despot. These two things have nothing in common. If it had only been presented that way. If it only had been “sold” to our present and former allies that way. If there had been a teeny bit of honesty. Saddam was a murdering nutcase and so were his sons, Itchy and Scratchy. He needed to go. That much I agree with. We did it wrong. It should have been done the way the first Gulf War was done, a real coalition, with UN blessing and troops. In fact, if the first coalition under the first Bush had finished the job, we wouldn’t have the quagmire we have now. The administration should have known better than to sell the war as "we will win in a few days and will do it “within budget”. Hindsight is 20/20. Now we are “mismanaging” the mess we made. In any case, it wasn’t Saddam who attacked New York or Washington. It was bin Laden and Company. We had him cornered. We let him get away. Now he is being ignored, because he is “inconvenient”. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/129 "2004-10-07T11:44:16Z")
> [@](#): > > These two things have nothing in common. This may be the first accurate statement **New Iskander** has posted since joining the boards: there really was no connection between the attacks on the WTC and Pentagon and Bush’s distraction that wasted the resources and good will needed for the war on terror in beating up an isolated dictator who presented no threat to the U.S. The two things had nothing in common, indeed. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/130 "2004-10-07T13:51:43Z")
> [@sevastopol](#): > > However, I have never seen any argument that the good doctor Blix or many other of the names mentioned were equally wedded to dishonesty. Indeed Dr. Blix stands as a titan of honesty, in amongst pygmies. That’s because you can’t see through him. Everyone remembers Powell speech and it’s lack of substance. Powell made me laugh. But nobody remembers that Powell was followed by Blix. After listening to Blix I thought, “Perhaps there is something to it…” It was part of the same game: direct attacks and inconclusive retractions. You just can’t accept that you were being played. The only person who told the truth was Scott Ritter, who resigned from inspections team in 1998, claiming inspections a sham and accusing Clinton adm. of playing political games under inspections cover. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/131 "2004-10-07T14:48:30Z")
> [@sevastopol](#): > > By my count, the elaboration of how, when and where GWB and co. lied has been made no less than 6 times on this board, without serious rebuttal. What does that mean, you can’t count below six? ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/132 "2004-10-07T14:54:07Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > What does that mean, you can’t count below six? What does that mean? You can’t understand fairly simple sentences? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/133 "2004-10-07T17:30:48Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > If it had only been presented that way. If it only had been “sold” to our present and former allies that way. If there had been a teeny bit of honesty. Saddam was a murdering nutcase and so were his sons, Itchy and Scratchy. He needed to go. That much I agree with. Not that I disagree with the sentiment as written, but if I may, I have a question for you: What are the odds that the Iraq invasion could have been ‘sold’ to the American public solely on the basis of the _thruth as expressed in your very post_? How about somewhere between minuscule and none. And as a follow-up to that query, do you think the Administration wasn’t keenly aware of those odds? Perhaps the following Wolfowitz quote will help you see the cynical, albeit pragmatic rationale used in pursuit of their ideology. For as I’ve said many times in the past, that’s what this was all about – ideology: [Vanity Fair Interview](http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/2003/tr20030509-depsecdef0223.html) > [@](#): > > \*\*The truth is that for reasons that have a lot to do with the U.S. government bureaucracy we settled on the one issue that everyone could agree on which was weapons of mass destruction as the core reason \*\* Translate into English and voila! There’s you ‘justification’ – truth has nothing to do with it. Works for just about any country they’d propose to invade. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/134 "2004-10-07T19:04:04Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > That’s because you can’t see through him. Everyone remembers Powell speech and it’s lack of substance. Powell made me laugh. But nobody remembers that Powell was followed by Blix. After listening to Blix I thought, “Perhaps there is something to it…” It was part of the same game: direct attacks and inconclusive retractions. You just can’t accept that you were being played. > > The only person who told the truth was Scott Ritter, who resigned from inspections team in 1998, claiming inspections a sham and accusing Clinton adm. of playing political games under inspections cover. Cite for Dr Blix? ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/135 "2004-10-07T19:12:33Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by sevastopol > > By my count, the elaboration of how, when and where GWB and co. lied has been made no less than 6 times on this board, without serious rebuttal. > > What does that mean, you can’t count below six? What a wounding question. Ouch it hurts. Not very much though, hmmm not at all. For your edification I present **The Summary!** : - ‘How Bush Lied’: Explained _at least_ 6 times, on this message board; Not seriously rebutted. ---
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/136 "2004-10-07T22:34:52Z")
> [@sevastopol](#): > > Cite for Dr Blix? How about [http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=12830532&method=full&siteid=50143](http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=12830532&method=full&siteid=50143) or [http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=13034196&method=full&siteid=50143&headline=BLIX%3A%20NO%20EVIDENCE%20OF%20WMD](http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=13034196&method=full&siteid=50143&headline=BLIX%3A%20NO%20EVIDENCE%20OF%20WMD) > [@](#): > > **Dr Blix told the council his team: "Has not at any time during the inspections in Iraq found evidence of the continuation or resumption of programs of weapons of mass destruction or significant quantities of proscribed items - whether from pre-1991 or later."** ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/137 "2004-10-07T23:17:05Z")
Um thanks **ZombieBrain** , I think. I was actually asking for a cite that Dr Blix _lied_. I don’t believe there is any such evidence. That’s my beef with **New Iskander’s** slander. Perhaps I’ve been whooshed. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/138 "2004-10-07T23:20:50Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > The only person who told the truth was Scott Ritter, who resigned from inspections team in 1998, claiming inspections a sham and accusing Clinton adm. of playing political games under inspections cover. 😕 Are you sure you mean this? Do you mean [this](http://www.salon.com/people/feature/2002/03/19/ritter/index_np.html) Scott Ritter? > [@](#): > > Scott Ritter: The controversial former chief U.N. weapons inspector in Iraq says Saddam’s weapons of mass destruction are largely disarmed, the “Iraqi threat” is built on a framework of lies and President Bush has betrayed the American people. For the first time, I partially agree with you. Although I disagree that he was the _only_ person to tell the truth. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/139 "2004-10-07T23:42:44Z")
> [@sevastopol](#): > > Cite for Dr Blix? I was listening to Powell’s UN speech in a car. Right after Powell finished, the station played Blix’s speech. Yes, Dr. Blix was always very meticulous in disproving specific US allegations about Iraqi WMD, but he was also very meticulous to always mention that Saddam is evasive and inspections must continue. Hans was certainly not a stand-up guy, as he never said outright that there is no WMD in Iraq, like Scott Ritter did. At best, old Hans is a career diplomat, milking his mandate for all it was worth. He was certainly speaking out of both sides of his mouth all the time: just count the references to Blix words in Powell speech. Scott Ritter I respect for telling the truth both to Clinton and Bush. I disagree with his assessment of Iraq invasion, but maybe it’s my problem, not his. If there was anybody else as straightforward as SR, I never heard. ---
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2004, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304/140 "2004-10-08T00:31:32Z")
> [@sevastopol](#): > > Um thanks **ZombieBrain** , I think. > > I was actually asking for a cite that Dr Blix _lied_. I don’t believe there is any such evidence. That’s my beef with **New Iskander’s** slander. > > Perhaps I’ve been whooshed. I was just trying to post links to what Blix actually said, so that you could see them. Sorry if I misunderstood what was wanted - it’s nearly 2am and I’m falling asleep here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-homage-to-mr-svinlesha/267304.md?page=8)