# An honest discussion re: JW hatred **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 3, 2013, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310 "2013-10-03T23:35:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Uber\_the\_Goober](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/58956e/32.png) [@Uber\_the\_Goober](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uber_the_Goober)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/101 "2013-10-04T13:16:38Z")
> [@simster](#): > > You may or may not be a “different” type of JW - perhaps you could have simply said “I’m sorry that some members of MY ORG treated you that way” - instead of all this other deflection - the same deflection you use later in this thread realted to door to door stuff. I’m sorry that it happened, but I’m not going to take personal responsibility for it. The same as you won’t apologize for the actions of the Americans who invaded the Bay of Pigs, or instigated the current crop of angst in the middle east, or bombed Hiroshima. At least, that’s how I see it. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/102 "2013-10-04T13:20:13Z")
> [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > **And honestly, if you’re so bent out of shape about saturday morning visits - just get a little sign that says “No witnessing”. We’re more than respectful enough (99% of us anyway) to just move on. We’d rather spend our time talking to someone who wants to talk to us.** I’d be interested in seeing a cite for that number. Or any number, really, if you were merely speaking off-the-cuff. ---
**Author:** ![Uber\_the\_Goober](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/58956e/32.png) [@Uber\_the\_Goober](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uber_the_Goober)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/103 "2013-10-04T13:21:53Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I’d be interested in seeing a cite for that number. Or any number, really, if you were merely speaking off-the-cuff. Figure of speech. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/104 "2013-10-04T13:22:13Z")
> [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > I’m sorry that it happened, but I’m not going to take personal responsibility for it. > > The same as you won’t apologize for the actions of the Americans who invaded the Bay of Pigs, or instigated the current crop of angst in the middle east, or bombed Hiroshima. > > At least, that’s how I see it. No one asked _ **you** _ to ‘take personal responsibility for it’ - but to dismiss it as you do is the problem… which is a common tactic ALL JW do when faced with these issues. and yes - I say all - all you have to do is review similar postss by **raindog** and others to see the pattern. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/105 "2013-10-04T13:25:20Z")
> [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > Figure of speech. Which means “I want you to think we’ll respect it, but I know we really won’t, how are we to know if you’re the same person that asked to be put on the list or maybe you changed your mind since then” ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/106 "2013-10-04T13:25:49Z")
> [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > Figure of speech. As I said, if you’re simply speaking off-the-cuff, i’m perfectly happy for you to come up with a more accurate figure. What figures have you seen to convince you of a respect for such signs on behalf of some presumably high number of JWs, and are they ones you could share? ---
**Author:** ![Uber\_the\_Goober](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/58956e/32.png) [@Uber\_the\_Goober](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uber_the_Goober)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/107 "2013-10-04T13:26:41Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Which means “I want you to think we’ll respect it, but I know we really won’t, how are we to know if you’re the same person that asked to be put on the list or maybe you changed your mind since then” No, it means everyone I know would respect it, and everyone I know believes that \*most \*of the people they know would respect it, and I extrapolated from there. ---
**Author:** ![Uber\_the\_Goober](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/58956e/32.png) [@Uber\_the\_Goober](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uber_the_Goober)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/108 "2013-10-04T13:29:19Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > As I said, if you’re simply speaking off-the-cuff, i’m perfectly happy for you to come up with a more accurate figure. What figures have you seen to convince you of a respect for such signs on behalf of some presumably high number of JWs, and are they ones you could share? Do you think I’ve done a study, or that anyone else has? I’m a little confused here. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/109 "2013-10-04T13:30:43Z")
> [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > No, it means everyone I know would respect it, and everyone I know believes that \*most \*of the people they know would respect it, and I extrapolated from there. “pulled it out my butt” would be just as accurate. There are too many anecdotes, and you’ll simply handwave it away as “not me, someone else that isnt listening, etc” ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/110 "2013-10-04T13:31:19Z")
> [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > Have you ever met one of Jehovah’s Witnesses? Not at your door on a Saturday morning either. I mean actually met and spoke with? Sorry, lonely, ill, infirm, gullible (maybe a little) we are not. Yes we take pride in humility (oxymoron admitted)…I really don’t see where you’re going with this? :dubious: I’ve met not only active, proselytizing JWs, I’ve met many inactive, and disfellowed JWs, too. What you do to those that go “inactive” and get disfellowed is enough to make me despise your organization. I don’t care for your platitudes about how it’s so easy with no repercussions…except that’s not how it’s actually practiced. The RCC preaches faith and love and then tells gays to get bent in the same breath? That makes me despise the institution. “And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.” ([Mark 12:31 KJV](http://biblehub.com/mark/12-31.htm)) **No Other Commandment** is greater than A) Loving God and B) Loving your fellow man. And, yet, it’s okay to act like complete jackasses to those that decide to not believe in your version of Christianity? Are you saying making people’s lives miserable is “love”? You love them so much that they should be completely ignored and/or harassed for eternity for rejecting with your interpretations? I don’t recall Christ’s words saying that you should shun the disbelievers. Perhaps you could provide them, hm? And saying “Oh, well that one segment of JW doesn’t reflect JW” or similar is like saying that not all Roman Catholics believe that gays should be removed from the church. The PEOPLE may or may not believe it, but the institution (made up OF the people, by the way) practices and condones the behavior. It’s [common](http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/disfellowship-shunning.php) JW practice of speaking nicely and well until you consider someone a part or a potential part of your institution, where you then go and harass them to join or denounce them and shun them ([advocated by Watchtower](http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/shun-your-disfellowshipped-loved-ones-shocking-district-convention-talk-hits-youtube)). Your position (and, I would aggressively opine, **your whole institution** ) is the exemplar of Christ’s words: “Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.” ([Matthew 7:5 KJV](http://biblehub.com/matthew/7-5.htm)) You want redemption from the public for your institution? You want people to think you are a good, wholesome religion? Stop practicing hate. THEN come back and proselytize. Lead not with words, but with actions. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/111 "2013-10-04T13:32:38Z")
> [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > Do you think I’ve done a study, or that anyone else has? I’m a little confused here. 😕 When I make a guess, it’s still based on something. If I say that 99% of a group do something, as an offhand remark or a figure of speech, it’s just another way of saying “I’m very convinced of this, though I don’t know the exact number, it’s probably very high”. I’m just wondering what it is that’s convinced you, to the point where you’re willing to share that opinion with us. Apparently it isn’t a study of JWs of some kind, so what is it? ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/112 "2013-10-04T13:33:27Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > You come knocking on my door and you aren’t wearing a UPS uniform and i am going to hate you by default. Those poor FedEx guys. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/113 "2013-10-04T13:34:52Z")
No hatred toward JW’s in my rural area of N. TX where I’m at. I do feel like some Christians must keep up the persecution complex though, because it was prophesized they would be persecuted, and feel like it’s a part of prophecy coming true. I’m always amused of how much persecuting some Christians think they are going through by living in America. Their beliefs are often worth a chuckle or two, but that’s about as far as it goes. I imagine some still think their beliefs deserve reverence, and when they don’t get it, go back to feeling persecuted again. I think most Christians have grown out of that though. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/114 "2013-10-04T13:35:50Z")
> [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > I guess you’re not familiar with the scope of JW’s proseletyzing? It’s worldwide, over 600 languages, and in nearly every country on earth. > > Not everybody has the internet. And we grow our faith not to bolster our position or prominence, but to bolster the situation of the people to whom we speak. You don’t want it, fine. But don’t assume that it’s not benefiting the people we bring it to. People in africa, south america, india, whereever, living in poverty or without education. In this way, we’ve helped plenty of people along the same lines as the Red Cross or whomever. But everyone in my neighborhood will be on the internet - statistically speaking. I live in a middle class suburb where most people are college educated professionals. Maybe when you proselytize in Cameroon you are reaching people who have never heard of JWs and who don’t have access to find JWs, but that isn’t MY neighborhood. Here, you are going to annoy more people than you inform. So, if your question is why people like me hate you (and I certainly don’t, I’ve discovered JWs who come to my door to be polite, accept my no and move on - I’m annoyed, but annoyed doesn’t come even close to hate. And as for the woo part, I lump JWs in with all the other sorts of woo - I have a lot more disdain for the psuedo science anti vaxxers than for JWs. And it doesn’t rise to hate, simply disdain) its because your actions assume that I’m an idiot who can’t choose my own faith (or lack thereof) given the resources within 21st century suburban America. I have no idea why people in Bulgaria or Cameroon might hate you. ---
**Author:** ![Uber\_the\_Goober](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/58956e/32.png) [@Uber\_the\_Goober](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uber_the_Goober)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/115 "2013-10-04T13:37:27Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > When I make a guess, it’s still based on something. If I say that 99% of a group do something, as an offhand remark or a figure of speech, it’s just another way of saying “I’m very convinced of this, though I don’t know the exact number, it’s probably very high”. I’m just wondering what it is that’s convinced you, to the point where you’re willing to share that opinion with us. Apparently it isn’t a study of JWs of some kind, so what is it? Like this? > [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > No, it means everyone I know would respect it, and everyone I know believes that \*most \*of the people they know would respect it, and I extrapolated from there. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/116 "2013-10-04T13:39:25Z")
Why I specifically dislike (hatred is such a strong word) the Jehovah Witnesses. Personal: 1. My friend J. He was raised in a small town. The oldest of three children. He’s a very loving, caring, and friendly person. His parents are JWs and he was raised as such. He’s now a “worldly” person as he is in a relationship for 15 years with another man. His parents have turned their love from him into a hostage situation. The unconditional love he had as a child is now very conditional based on his relationship. He got sick of the emotional yo-yo that his parents caused him by showing affection at one point and then ripping it away because of their religious beliefs with the JWs and how their church is against them talking to their worldly son. 2. My partner’s siblings. He was raised Catholic with them. Several of them converted later in life to being JWs due to some doomsday prophecy that came and passed. My partner’s mom is still Catholic and 94 years old. She gets calls on her birthday from the JW siblings but due to really stupid restrictions, they have to pretend that they’re calling “just to talk”. External: 3) Brainwashing of children.If an adult wants to swallow rubbish, go ahead. But forcing children into this crap way of thinking or believing is straight up **child abuse.** One example: > [@](#): > > [A 17 year-old Jehovah’s Witness who was fighting a court order to have a life-saving blood transfusion has lost an appeal just four months shy of his 18th birthday. The religious teenager, who is being treated for Hodgkin’s Lymphoma at The Sydney Children’s Hospital, had threatened to rip the IV needle from his arm and said it would be akin to rape if he was given a blood transfusion while under anaesthetic](http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/jehovahs-witness-teen-loses-appeal-over-lifesaving-transfusion-20130927-2uib6.html#ixzz2glB0WDKc) > > His doctor, Professor Glenn Marshall, told the court earlier this year that X had an 80 per cent chance of dying from anaemia if he didn’t have the transfusion. > > In most cases, the young person died like 15-year-old Joshua McAuley, who refused a blood transfusion following a car crash in England’s West Midlands in 2010. > > The Children’s Hospital said the boy had a “cocooned upbringing” and his family had “little exposure to challenges of their beliefs from outsiders” so what they may have thought was best was not necessarily correct. 1. Gay rights/Abortion rights. Any enemy of gay rights is an enemy of mine. I don’t actively try to shut the JWs down. However, when a group actively tries to shut me down? Fuck that. 2. Proselytization. This is a minor quibble for me. But there’s a time and place for everything. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/117 "2013-10-04T13:40:56Z")
> [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > No, it means everyone I know would respect it, and everyone I know believes that \*most \*of the people they know would respect it, and I extrapolated from there. 99% of the people I know are British. 95% of the people they know are British. Extrapolating from there, 95% of the world’s population is British. Yourself, the people you know, and they people they know, is way too small a sample size to know what a population of… Wikipedia suggest 7.78 million people, is like. ---
**Author:** ![Uber\_the\_Goober](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/58956e/32.png) [@Uber\_the\_Goober](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uber_the_Goober)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/118 "2013-10-04T14:00:09Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > 99% of the people I know are British. 95% of the people they know are British. Extrapolating from there, 95% of the world’s population is British. > > Yourself, the people you know, and they people they know, is way too small a sample size to know what a population of… Wikipedia suggest 7.78 million people, is like. OK! You got me! Now I don’t really care, ok? Pin someone else down on some other pedantic point. _I_ will not bother someone who tells me to leave them alone. Capiche? Specific enough for you? Was a point made that will now \*finally \*erode the credibility of Witnesses because of this? I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![Uber\_the\_Goober](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/58956e/32.png) [@Uber\_the\_Goober](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uber_the_Goober)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/119 "2013-10-04T14:03:20Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > 1. Gay rights/Abortion rights. Any enemy of gay rights is an enemy of mine. I don’t actively try to shut the JWs down. However, when a group actively tries to shut me down? Fuck that. Thanks for your reasoned and comprehensive response. Re: 4) we certainly \*\*don’t \*\*actively try to shut you down. Not one bit of public outrage or legislation against gays will ever stem from JW’s involvement in the political sphere. We don’t condone homosexuality, and discourage members from engaging in it, but we don’t aim to control what happens anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/120 "2013-10-04T14:04:19Z")
> [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > OK! You got me! Now I don’t really care, ok? Pin someone else down on some other pedantic point. > > _I_ will not bother someone who tells me to leave them alone. Capiche? Specific enough for you? Was a point made that will now \*finally \*erode the credibility of Witnesses because of this? I doubt it. I thought the whole point of the thread was for you to discover why and whether people hated JWs. If you’re interested in discovering this, \*shouldn’t \*you care how many JWs respect signs asking for no witnessing? I haven’t made any grandiose claim about JWs as a whole - it seems somewhat ironic that you’re accusing me of doing so, when _you’re_ the one who made a grandiose claim about JWs as a whole. On edit; > [@](#): > > Re: 4) we certainly don’t actively try to shut you down. Not one bit of public outrage or legislation against gays will ever stem from JW’s involvement in the political sphere. We don’t condone homosexuality, and discourage members from engaging in it, but we don’t aim to control what happens anywhere. Given that you actively proseylatize as a group to bring others into your fold, members who you would then discourage from engaging in homosexual behaviour, doesn’t that mean you aim to control what happens everywhere? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310.md?page=7)