# An honest discussion re: JW hatred **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 3, 2013, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310 "2013-10-03T23:35:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Uber\_the\_Goober](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/58956e/32.png) [@Uber\_the\_Goober](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uber_the_Goober)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/121 "2013-10-04T14:16:04Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I thought the whole point of the thread was for you to discover why and whether people hated JWs. If you’re interested in discovering this, \*shouldn’t \*you care how many JWs respect signs asking for no witnessing? > > I haven’t made any grandiose claim about JWs as a whole - it seems somewhat ironic that you’re accusing me of doing so, when _you’re_ the one who made a grandiose claim about JWs as a whole. So your point is that you (maybe) and others you know, who dislike JW’s, do so simply because in their experience the JW’s will not stop coming to their door, despite being asked not to? Or is it something else? > [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > On edit; > Given that you actively proseylatize as a group to bring others into your fold, members who you would then discourage from engaging in homosexual behaviour, doesn’t that mean you aim to control what happens everywhere? No, it doesn’t. It means that we aim to spread our message everywhere, and we fully expect that it will not be universally received. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/122 "2013-10-04T14:16:46Z")
What’s the official JW view on suicide? ---
**Author:** ![CLee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@CLee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CLee)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/123 "2013-10-04T14:20:41Z")
> [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > I simply can’t resist the urge to respond to individuals like **CLee** , who apparently have a very comprehensive opinion that is not based on the majority of available facts, rather, is based upon their interpretation of the anecdotes of people for whom association with JW’s went very poorly. Well, that’s you. I haven’t met or interacted with any Witnesses in years. It’s your tone, faux-congeniality and patronizing repartee which colored my responses. The fact that other JW’s are affiliated with your self-righteous attitude discredits them, not the other way around. Are you listening? I haven’t encountered any with a more superior, unpleasant attitude than the tone you’ve put forth there. The behavior and attitudes of the club is now a reflection on your input. > [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > So I’m supposed to say, “Yep, I personally did that stuff, and I’m sorry”? > > I didn’t cause any of that, any you well know that there’s multiple sides to any story. I’m sure we’d never get to know the true reasons why any of those thigns happened - things which obviously upset **Dr. Drake** greatly. So I offered my apologies for the way things turned out in his life re: association with Witnesses, and I thanked him for his input - input which is perfectly along the veins of my OP. He explained quite clearly where his negative feelings toward the JW’s came from. Yes, you have. You’ve participated in disfellowshipping, therefore you are guilty of causing irreparable psychological harm to innocent folks and leaving them utterly alone to twist in the wind. > [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > Superficially super-nice tactics…ok so when nobody’s looking, we really punch kittens and bake razor blades into cupcakes? Have you seen any of the studies wherein folks are tested on whether or not they can spot the genuine smile? This is comparable. The superficial congeniality is evident to nearly all who encounter it. You (collective You) have made it abundantly clear that you feel above The World and its members, and take great pride in condescending to bother us with your soliciting. Pat yourself on the back for pitching in and helping with yardwork or entertaining lonely widows all you like; it’s self-serving baby kissing not at all removed from the politicking Witnesses claim to have no use for. > [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > We do not believe that “every effort” must be made to prolong a human life. In our opinion, our respect for God, and what we believe he’s told us to do/not do, is more important than saving our own lives. When you believe that we’re going to all be resurrected in a paradise on Earth anyway, it’s really not so terrible to give up a few years of life in this particular society (full of strife and anger and badness) in exchange for God saying “Thanks for sticking up for the standards I set, however arbitrary they may have seemed to you”. The case could be made that it’s a similar situation that Adam and Eve faced - “they shouldn’t eat a fruit? What? How needlessly restrictive is that?!! They might starve!” Yes, by all means, do with your own body what you must because you are an adult. The minors and those Witnesses of a certain delicate and sheltered constitution do not have the same faculties to make an informed decision after years of programming. You, personally, would encourage another member to forgo a simple life-saving measure to what end? You can claim that a six year old leukemia patient or hemophiliac was given his own freedom to choose whether or not to undergo a transfusion, but it’s a horrific and unnecessary death sentence in this modern world. I’m a blood donor. I’d gladly save the life of the six-year old you allow to wither away in abject misery and pain. Most of us would, because we’re not monsters. > [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > I forgot to respond to this point specifically - yes, we do. You can choose to simply leave, and not tell anybody, and become “inactive”. You can choose to disassociate yourself, and if it’s due to you choosing to live a life in opposition to biblical principles, an announcement is made that you are no longer one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It’s the same as if you were disfellowshipped though. 1 Cor 5:10-12. > > And this, also, I can appreciate as a reason for not liking the JW’s as a group. Some people feel that family is above all else. Some people feel that God is above all else. Some people feel that those who disfellowship former members put them willfully at risk for isolation, depression, and suicide. Well, me, I feel that way. Shunning is a wicked punishment for doubt. > [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > I, along with most witnesses, respect the rights of others to not follow our beliefs. We simply feel a much stronger motivation to give others the opportunity to do things our way. We’re not passively waiting for people to come find us. We’ll come find you, offer it to you, and then at least you can make your choice. And you are encouraged to find shut-ins and the lonely elderly as part of your “ministry” because it’s the quickest and easiest way to increase the fold. Then you begin to carve them off from their own herd if they are unable to bring more of their own neighbors and family members into your pyramid scheme. > [@simster](#): > > You may or may not be a “different” type of JW - perhaps you could have simply said “I’m sorry that some members of MY ORG treated you that way” - instead of all this other deflection - the same deflection you use later in this thread realted to door to door stuff. Every word I’ve read from you in the past week has served to reflect exactly what I expect from the organization you are attempting to distance yourself from. The incessant proselytizing, disfellowshipping, refusal of simple life-saving procedures, and unabashed bigotry towards your fellow man are exactly what gives Witnesses a bad reputation, and you’ve espoused them all here in one brief week of posting. > [@Farin](#): > > You want redemption from the public for your institution? You want people to think you are a good, wholesome religion? Stop practicing hate. THEN come back and proselytize. Lead not with words, but with actions. Yes, please. > [@stpauler](#): > > External: > 3) Brainwashing of children.If an adult wants to swallow rubbish, go ahead. But forcing children into this crap way of thinking or believing is straight up **child abuse.** One example: > 4) Gay rights/Abortion rights. Any enemy of gay rights is an enemy of mine. I don’t actively try to shut the JWs down. However, when a group actively tries to shut me down? Fuck that. This and this. The fact that you cannot see how ugly the behavior is just proves how deep in the leadership role you are, at the top of the pyramid. You are, admittedly, quite good at selling your agenda, and despite a limited education, you’re very bright and I’m sure very convincing to widows and shut-ins. I suspect your World job is in sales, or at least it should be. I’m certain you believe yourself, and just as certain that certain others vulnerable to your gung-ho persuasion also believe you. I’d love to see your sales figures, and if I owned a used car lot, I’d be smart to hire you. But you should know that if doubt ever strikes you, or if you realize in the middle of a dark and cold night the cruelty you’ve exposed disfellowshipped members to, the not-at-all subtle and supremely sinister pressure you exert on others re medical intervention, everyone griping at you here, most especially me, would embrace you without hesitation and welcome you into a more accepting, tolerant, forgiving world. Drat, I said “world”. Forgotten what a dirty word that is to you. Would willingly, wholeheartedly welcome you into a more accepting, tolerant, forgiving family of friends and strangers. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/124 "2013-10-04T14:21:13Z")
> [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > Sounds more like you don’t want to have a conversation unless you’re assured the other person won’t be using phrasing, terminology, or possessing ignorance that might offend you. > > Call me out on my ignorance, and let’s discuss that. But of course I’m going to present what I believe to be facts, as facts. Don’t you? Wow! I didn’t really care one way or the other about the JWs, but you’re definitely changing my mind. Probably not in the direction you intend, though. Anyway, it’s really the Witnesses of Jehovah that I hate. Splitters! ---
**Author:** ![Uber\_the\_Goober](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/58956e/32.png) [@Uber\_the\_Goober](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uber_the_Goober)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/125 "2013-10-04T14:25:37Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What’s the official JW view on suicide? Are you expecting the answer to possibly provide a reason for why you don’t like JW’s? Or is this more of a “Ask the JW” type of thing? [Link](http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2002447) Excerpt: > [@](#): > > Granted, some may feel that the person took his life intentionally, fully aware that he was sinning against Jehovah. But is there always a way to substantiate such a feeling? Could it have been a spur-of-the-moment act? Some who attempt suicide feel regret and do not go through with it. A person cannot after death repent for what he has done. > Another important factor is that of mental and emotional disorders that are involved in many suicides. These can really be called suicide victims. According to some statistics, 90 percent of those who commit suicide have some kind of mental, emotional, or addictive problem. Will Jehovah forgive the self-murder committed by people in such a mental state? **We are not in a position to judge whether the deceased committed an unforgivable sin in the eyes of Jehovah**. A Christian minister may take into account the circumstances and medical history of the deceased when he considers whether to perform a funeral service for the suicide victim. Bolding mine. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/126 "2013-10-04T14:26:29Z")
> [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > So your point is that you (maybe) and others you know, who dislike JW’s, do so simply because in their experience the JW’s will not stop coming to their door, despite being asked not to? > > Or is it something else? I don’t dislike JW’s as a group. But certainly, I can imagine that there are people who dislike JWs because in their experience the JWs will not stop, etc. Beyond the obvious annoyance factor, there’s possibly also an argument that it shows a lack of respect. If someone repeatedly attempts to persuade another despite that person outright saying they have no desire to be persuaded, then they’d be coming into that conversation and disregarded that person’s opinions even before they’ve said anything. Of course, that might not be the only reason, but it seems like it could be one. Hence the importance of looking at the numbers of JWs who respect signs - if lots do, it would be unreasonable to say it’s something that’s institutional. That’s why I asked for a cite. > [@](#): > > No, it doesn’t. It means that we aim to spread our message everywhere, and we fully expect that it will not be universally received. Is the lack of total success a desired goal, or a practical goal? That is to say, if it was possible that your message could be recieved universally, would you attempt to spread it such? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/127 "2013-10-04T14:27:48Z")
> [@CLee](#): > > Every word I’ve read from you in the past week has served to reflect exactly what I expect from the organization you are attempting to distance yourself from. The incessant proselytizing, disfellowshipping, refusal of simple life-saving procedures, and unabashed bigotry towards your fellow man are exactly what gives Witnesses a bad reputation, and you’ve espoused them all here in one brief week of posting. Clee - you quoted me and followed with this response - not sure if that was intentional - or I am missing your point here - ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/128 "2013-10-04T14:29:07Z")
> [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > Are you expecting the answer to possibly provide a reason for why you don’t like JW’s? No-I was just asking a question. Paranoid much? ---
**Author:** ![CLee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@CLee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CLee)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/129 "2013-10-04T14:32:54Z")
> [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > No, it doesn’t. It means that we aim to spread our message everywhere, and we fully expect that it will not be universally received. Sigh. We know this. Jesus warned you that you would be hated, that is how He front-loaded his membership drive. Any and every time you are received with resentment, it serves to reinforce His prophecy as well as bond you to your fellow prosecutees. Have you ever explored how other cults work at all? This is how Koresh, Hubbard, and Jones operated, too. It serves a purpose, the promise of persecution. The frequent refrain that you are willing to tolerate persecution in order to fulfill prophecy simply reminds me that others of like mind succumbed to an unnecessary premature death for the very same reasons. So many other positive and hopeful prophecies in the Bible to glom onto, and you choose the one that is most certain to bring you pain. ---
**Author:** ![CLee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@CLee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CLee)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/130 "2013-10-04T14:33:56Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Clee - you quoted me and followed with this response - not sure if that was intentional - or I am missing your point here - Accidental, apologies. Writing quickly while on break, it was meant for Uber. ---
**Author:** ![Uber\_the\_Goober](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/58956e/32.png) [@Uber\_the\_Goober](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uber_the_Goober)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/131 "2013-10-04T14:40:32Z")
> [@CLee](#): > > This and this. The fact that you cannot see how ugly the behavior is just proves how deep in the leadership role you are, at the top of the pyramid. You are, admittedly, quite good at selling your agenda, and despite a limited education, you’re very bright and I’m sure very convincing to widows and shut-ins. I suspect your World job is in sales, or at least it should be. I’m certain you believe yourself, and just as certain that certain others vulnerable to your gung-ho persuasion also believe you. I’d love to see your sales figures, and if I owned a used car lot, I’d be smart to hire you. At first I couldn’t plot your course, couldn’t understand your perspective. I think I’ve got it now. You’re a conspiracy theorist aren’t you? What web do you think I’m trying to weave? To what end? You believe that I expect to “convert” people by means of this thread, on this message board? Come on, that’s pretty far-fetched. I’m certainly not in a leadership position. It’s not a pyramid scheme, because there’s no gain involved that requires additional members to perpetuate. I’m not a salesman. I hate salesmen, because they seek to be friendly and persuasive in pursuit of dollars for their wallet at the cost of all else. If I didn’t believe that my way of life was beneficial, I wouldn’t recommend it to others. I see no evidence that being a JW results in more pain and heartache, more death and grief, than NOT being a JW. In my opinion, and based on my observations, the pros outweigh the cons. Maybe one day I’ll change my opinion, but it ain’t today. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/132 "2013-10-04T14:42:19Z")
You’re just here to be persecuted, right? ---
**Author:** ![Uber\_the\_Goober](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/58956e/32.png) [@Uber\_the\_Goober](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uber_the_Goober)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/133 "2013-10-04T14:43:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No-I was just asking a question. > Paranoid much? No-I was just asking a question. Truly. The original intent of this thread was to understand the mindset of people who disliked/hated JW’s. ---
**Author:** ![Uber\_the\_Goober](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/58956e/32.png) [@Uber\_the\_Goober](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uber_the_Goober)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/134 "2013-10-04T14:45:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You’re just here to be persecuted, right? Did you have a response to the information I provided in answer of your question? Was it sufficient? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/135 "2013-10-04T14:47:54Z")
> [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > Are you expecting the answer to possibly provide a reason for why you don’t like JW’s? > > Or is this more of a “Ask the JW” type of thing? > > [Link](http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2002447) > > Excerpt: > > Bolding mine. You realize that the bolded part is the judgement - classic double speak - “I’m not going to tell you you’re going to hell”, etc - is the same as saying “yep, you’re going”. In case your dense, “is an unforgivable sin in the eyes of jehovah” is being declared there - you’re weaseling away with the “we don’t judge” dodge. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/136 "2013-10-04T14:48:55Z")
> [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > No-I was just asking a question. > > Truly. The original intent of this thread was to understand the mindset of people who disliked/hated JW’s. Bull. The title you gave this thread showed the intent-to decry the “hatred” others have towards your religion, to show how persecuted you are. Well, most that have posted here have said that “hatred” doesn’t really describe how they feel at all, and when they gave details as to why they feel the way they do your oft-repeated response of “Well…_I_ don’t do that, so why are you picking on me??” just adds to the “here to be persecuted” theme I see here. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/137 "2013-10-04T14:57:20Z")
I don’t have any more contempt for JW than any other crazy religion (i.e., all of them). They don’t come to my door. No one comes to my door. I’m lucky that way I guess. I don’t know much about their beliefs, but if it includes a supernatural pasta king or anything similar, I’m going to point and laugh when the situation arises. ---
**Author:** ![Uber\_the\_Goober](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/58956e/32.png) [@Uber\_the\_Goober](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uber_the_Goober)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/138 "2013-10-04T15:06:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Bull. The title you gave this thread showed the intent-to decry the “hatred” others have towards your religion, to show how persecuted you are. Well, most that have posted here have said that “hatred” doesn’t really describe how they feel at all, and when they gave details as to why they feel the way they do your oft-repeated response of “Well…_I_ don’t do that, so why are you picking on me??” just adds to the “here to be persecuted” theme I see here. I really though it was more [known](http://www.knocking.org/ReligiousPersecutionReport.html) than this. Guess not. Lest you decry that cite as biased, PBS put their name on it, so there’s that. Just cuz the local 'mercans don’t muster more than apathy or umbrage towards JW’s doesn’t mean A) it was always that way and B) the rest of the world follows suit ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/139 "2013-10-04T15:10:50Z")
> [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > Excerpt: > > > [@](#): > > > > A Christian minister may take into account the circumstances and medical history of the deceased \*\*when he considers whether to perform a funeral service \*\*for the suicide victim. bolding mine You bolded the wrong part. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310/140 "2013-10-04T15:12:44Z")
> [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > I really though it was more [known](http://www.knocking.org/ReligiousPersecutionReport.html) than this. > > Guess not. Lest you decry that cite as biased, PBS put their name on it, so there’s that. > > Just cuz the local 'mercans don’t muster more than apathy or umbrage towards JW’s doesn’t mean A) it was always that way and B) the rest of the world follows suit finding examples of “persecution” does not equal outright hatred - any film that wants to show “persecution” will be able to find examples of it. One of the films producers is a JW - or is atleast ‘friendly’ to the cause. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-honest-discussion-re-jw-hatred/670310.md?page=8)