# An hour and a half left before he dies, and we live **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 11, 2001, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-hour-and-a-half-left-before-he-dies-and-we-live/68407 "2001-06-11T10:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-hour-and-a-half-left-before-he-dies-and-we-live/68407/21 "2001-06-11T13:04:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Johnny L.A. \* > \*\*But I can’t help feeling some shame at living in a country that executes people. > \*\* And so now you are a better person than I am. :rolleyes: In case you hadn’t realized, you live in a _democracy_, in which we collectively decide how things are done. There is clearly a need for capital punishment, else it would not exist. There is undoubtedly a desire for capital punishment, else it would not exist. I don’t like the way executions are handled, but we do the best we can. At least now these monsters get due process (to an extent). Go back to medieval times, and ask them how much due process they got. I think that McVeigh got exactly what he deserved. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-hour-and-a-half-left-before-he-dies-and-we-live/68407/22 "2001-06-11T13:06:05Z")
Speaking of CNN… It is interesting that a bird (it looked like it may have been a small owl – “All I wanted was a burrow-owl…”) lit on the arm of one of the anti-capital punishment demonstrators. This wild animal lit on her arm while she sat, and stayed there when she stood. ---
**Author:** ![Astroboy14](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/df705f/32.png) [@Astroboy14](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astroboy14)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-hour-and-a-half-left-before-he-dies-and-we-live/68407/23 "2001-06-11T13:07:12Z")
> [@](#): > > I think that McVeigh got exactly what he deserved. Agreed, but I still don’t feel all that good about it. No rational reason for my feelings that I can come up with right now… let me sleep on it and see how I feel about it tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![Astroboy14](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/df705f/32.png) [@Astroboy14](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astroboy14)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-hour-and-a-half-left-before-he-dies-and-we-live/68407/24 "2001-06-11T13:09:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Johnny L.A. \* > \*\*Speaking of CNN… > > It is interesting that a bird (it looked like it may have been a small owl – “All I wanted was a burrow-owl…”) lit on the arm of one of the anti-capital punishment demonstrators. This wild animal lit on her arm while she sat, and stayed there when she stood. > \*\* **Johnny** , I haven’t seen the footage, are you sure it was a wild bird? And where did the quote come from? Just curious… ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-hour-and-a-half-left-before-he-dies-and-we-live/68407/25 "2001-06-11T13:15:38Z")
> [@](#): > > And so now you are a better person than I am. :rolleyes: Please. That was not my intent. You are correct that McVeigh got what he deserved. But I don’t have to feel good about it. I am by no means a “bleeding heart”. But I _am_ ambivalent about the CP. I accept that the U.S. has executions. You think it’s a good thing, and I question whether it is. I think it’s best that we forget our differences on the issue and have a beer. I’ll buy the first round. **Astroboy** : I saw the footage. It looked like a wild bird and the CNN reporter said it just flew up and perched on the woman. I’m not an expert, but it looked like a small owl to me. ---
**Author:** ![Astroboy14](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/df705f/32.png) [@Astroboy14](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astroboy14)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-hour-and-a-half-left-before-he-dies-and-we-live/68407/26 "2001-06-11T13:19:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Astroboy: I saw the footage. It looked like a wild bird and the CNN reporter said it just flew up and perched on the woman. I’m not an expert, but it looked like a small owl to me. I repeat: huh. That’s pretty weird, and slightly creepy, in a weird, creepy sorta way… ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-hour-and-a-half-left-before-he-dies-and-we-live/68407/27 "2001-06-11T13:20:16Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Johnny L.A. \* > [B > I think it’s best that we forget our differences on the issue and have a beer. I’ll buy the first round._\* Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![Astroboy14](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/df705f/32.png) [@Astroboy14](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astroboy14)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-hour-and-a-half-left-before-he-dies-and-we-live/68407/28 "2001-06-11T13:21:10Z")
Wait, I’m watching the CNN coverage right now (10:16PM in Korea…) ---
**Author:** ![Astroboy14](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/df705f/32.png) [@Astroboy14](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astroboy14)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-hour-and-a-half-left-before-he-dies-and-we-live/68407/29 "2001-06-11T13:23:16Z")
It says it’s live… we’ll see… ---
**Author:** ![BiblioCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed8c4c/32.png) [@BiblioCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BiblioCat)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-hour-and-a-half-left-before-he-dies-and-we-live/68407/30 "2001-06-11T13:23:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF \* > \*\*I think that McVeigh got exactly what he deserved. \*\* IIRC, didn’t he get exactly what he **wanted**? Didn’t he say he fully expected to be caught (the get-away car had no tags), and knew he would get the death penalty? I think he wants to be made into some kind of martyr. I say good riddance. At least **my** tax dollars aren’t feeding and clothing him anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-hour-and-a-half-left-before-he-dies-and-we-live/68407/31 "2001-06-11T13:24:08Z")
Oh – I should point out that they didn’t show the bird fly up. They showed the woman after the bird had lit and after she had stood up. The CNN reporter who was there said that the bird had been there about five minutes, lighting as the woman sat and remaining as she stood. Yeah, it’s weird and creepy in a weird, creepy sort of way. Is it significant? Is it a “sign”? Who can say? Maybe it’s just coincidence. Maybe, if it _was_ an owl, it was a _trained_ owl that the protestor used for effect. No way to know. ---
**Author:** ![Astroboy14](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/df705f/32.png) [@Astroboy14](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astroboy14)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-hour-and-a-half-left-before-he-dies-and-we-live/68407/32 "2001-06-11T13:26:04Z")
OK, apparently it was a live broadcast from someone making a statement that the execution had been completed… Huh. No footage yet of the bird (but they’re still discussing, so who knows…). ---
**Author:** ![Astroboy14](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/df705f/32.png) [@Astroboy14](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astroboy14)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-hour-and-a-half-left-before-he-dies-and-we-live/68407/33 "2001-06-11T13:36:04Z")
> [@](#): > > I say good riddance. At least my tax dollars aren’t feeding and clothing him anymore. Yeah, I agree… I’m just not too sure that I’m comfortable with the fact that your tax dollars were used to kill someone… At risk of turning this into a GD: is life sacred or not? Does it become less sacred as one ages? If execution is OK, then is abortion OK? If abortion is OK, then is execution OK? If one is OK, then why not the other? Don’t answer. _This_ shouldn’t go to GD… it would just give McVeigh’s memory more staying power, and I’d just as soon forget about him… ---
**Author:** ![Astroboy14](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/df705f/32.png) [@Astroboy14](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astroboy14)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-hour-and-a-half-left-before-he-dies-and-we-live/68407/34 "2001-06-11T13:42:26Z")
…and now I can watch Jay Leno, and try to forget that any of that ever happened. Weird. Huh. ---
**Author:** ![Zarathustra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/898d66/32.png) [@Zarathustra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zarathustra)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-hour-and-a-half-left-before-he-dies-and-we-live/68407/35 "2001-06-11T14:01:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Astroboy14 \* > \*\*…and now I can watch Jay Leno, and try to forget that any of that ever happened. > > Weird. > > Huh. \*\* I’d say one argument for the death penalty might be to combat such apathy. I don’t mean this as criticism, Astroboy14. I would just point out that any sane person should be disturbed by the carrying out of an execution, as Johnny L.A. pointed out in his thread. Maybe disturbing people should be its purpose, so that they don’t forget what these crimes mean. None of Stalin’s or Mao’s henchmen were executed for their crimes against humanity, but Hitler’s henchmen were. Which crime does the world remember, and say “never again”? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tof](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@The\_Tof](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tof)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-hour-and-a-half-left-before-he-dies-and-we-live/68407/36 "2001-06-11T14:41:22Z")
In general I’m for the death penalty. But to me, just as important as the punishment fitting the crime. If possible, the punishment should fit the criminal as well. I think McVeigh sees his death as a prize for his actions and not a punishment. He considers himself the ultimate matyr (sp?). He may die, but he knows the damage he caused and his death was worth what he did. Ultimately, for most people, a death sentence is the worst possible punishment. For McVeigh, a lifetime of in the deepest darkest pit where nobody could reach him would be much more appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Zero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@Saint\_Zero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Zero)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-hour-and-a-half-left-before-he-dies-and-we-live/68407/37 "2001-06-11T15:13:30Z")
It’s ghoulish to get up this morning to see my wife off to work, and the only thing the news is showing is the aftermath of his death. It’s like they were expecting him to crack or something. He knew what was coming, and was ready. Ironic, in that until this point, being on death row is just about the safest place to be, for some criminals. The last guy executied was what, 35 years ago? Heck, here in Mississippi we are coming up on 15 since we had our last one. ---
**Author:** ![Vestal\_Blue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/5e9695/32.png) [@Vestal\_Blue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vestal_Blue)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-hour-and-a-half-left-before-he-dies-and-we-live/68407/38 "2001-06-11T15:21:01Z")
Do I feel better? Not particularly, but then I don’t feel bad either. He was damaged goods. I think he went too easy. Do I support the death penalty? Yes, though the thought of an innocent being put to death does disturb me; not a concern in this case. He doesn’t deserve Hell. He needs to just cease to exist, corporealy and spiritually; his soul to just evaporate, if such a thing can happen. I hope the victims of the bombing found what they were individually looking for in this conclusion of a life. My heart goes out to them, and to McVeigh’s parents. It must be horrible to lose a child, and so much more so in this manner, yet tempered by the sorrow and disappointment they may have felt in the choice he made, April 19, 1995. ---
**Author:** ![ChoosyChipsAndCeilingWhacks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c77e96/32.png) [@ChoosyChipsAndCeilingWhacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChoosyChipsAndCeilingWhacks)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-hour-and-a-half-left-before-he-dies-and-we-live/68407/39 "2001-06-11T15:24:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Astroboy14 \* > \*\*So he’s gone… good riddance. > > I don’t feel any better, though. I thought I would. > > Huh. \*\* As someone who has dealt a great deal with crime victims, I can attest that punishment of the perpetrator VERY rarely makes the victim feel any better. Past the point at which the victim is SAFE (i.e., the perp is incarcerated or otherwise past being a threat any longer) punishment accomplishes nothing for the victim. I have to say that everything about this incident makes me literally sick. The bombing itself makes me sick. The reasons he carried it out make me sick. The fact that he’s now a martyr makes me sick. The notion that someone just like him could continue the cycle and take further vengeful action makes me sick. The fact that we’re one of four countries that routinely uses the death penalty, along with China and Iran makes me want to vomit. The way I spent the entire morning contemplating the weight of one man’s used up, useless life versus 168 real lives and tried to add it up to some sort of meaningful conclusion has left me literally unable to keep any food down. -L ---
**Author:** ![Zarathustra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/898d66/32.png) [@Zarathustra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zarathustra)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-hour-and-a-half-left-before-he-dies-and-we-live/68407/40 "2001-06-11T16:02:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SexyWriter \* > \*\*As someone who has dealt a great deal with crime victims, I can attest that punishment of the perpetrator VERY rarely makes the victim feel any better. Past the point at which the victim is SAFE (i.e., the perp is incarcerated or otherwise past being a threat any longer) punishment accomplishes nothing for the victim. > \*\* To tell the truth, I find myself rather indifferent to whether the survivors gain any so-called “closure” from this. I don’t care whether the execution accomplishes anything for them or not. McVeigh offended a much greater swath of society than this handful of people. Justice should be dispassionate, and its means and methods shouldn’t hinge on the emotions of the survivors. Whether putting a man to death can be in the service of justice is another debate, of course. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-hour-and-a-half-left-before-he-dies-and-we-live/68407.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-hour-and-a-half-left-before-he-dies-and-we-live/68407.md?page=3)