# An idea for peace in the Jerusalem/Isreal **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 24, 2015, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-idea-for-peace-in-the-jerusalem-isreal/728693 "2015-08-24T05:24:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-idea-for-peace-in-the-jerusalem-isreal/728693/161 "2015-08-27T12:52:44Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Right > > because I have to live in “the hood” to say that maybe, just maybe, poor African Americans should stop selling crack and shooting each other But that’s a goal not a proposal to get there. How would you feel about dispersing all the inner city blacks across sub-Saharan Africa to solve the drug gang crisis? Because you know, they are like children fighting over a lemonade stand. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-idea-for-peace-in-the-jerusalem-isreal/728693/162 "2015-08-27T14:02:05Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > because I have to live in “the hood” to say that maybe, just maybe, poor African Americans should stop selling crack and shooting each other As said, that’s a nice goal, but proposing a solution that doesn’t understand the underlying causes of the violence and drug use is doomed to failure. Relocating poor blacks with no skills or prospects isn’t going to reduce violence, and may in fact increase it by spreading it to areas that are currently peaceful. You’re looking at very complex issues, treating the participants as children, and trying to impose an unmanageable solution that won’t do what you want because you don’t understand why things are happening. You may be able to separate two children who are fighting; the problem is pretty simple. But that doesn’t really scale up to the Middle East. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-idea-for-peace-in-the-jerusalem-isreal/728693/163 "2015-08-27T14:10:41Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > you are right. my problem is i think logically. it is hard for me to adopt a fanatical mindset. i just think they are being childish and should stop. Like, say, the settlers and the Native Americans? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-idea-for-peace-in-the-jerusalem-isreal/728693/164 "2015-08-27T16:04:15Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > But that’s a goal not a proposal to get there. How would you feel about dispersing all the inner city blacks across sub-Saharan Africa to solve the drug gang crisis? Because you know, they are like children fighting over a lemonade stand. > [@Telemark](#): > > As said, that’s a nice goal, but proposing a solution that doesn’t understand the underlying causes of the violence and drug use is doomed to failure. Relocating poor blacks with no skills or prospects isn’t going to reduce violence, and may in fact increase it by spreading it to areas that are currently peaceful. > > You’re looking at very complex issues, treating the participants as children, and trying to impose an unmanageable solution that won’t do what you want because you don’t understand why things are happening. > > You may be able to separate two children who are fighting; the problem is pretty simple. But that doesn’t really scale up to the Middle East. What I mean is, certainly poverty and desperation will lead to trouble and to temptation, trouble and temptation that I will probably never understand because I am not driven to such a dire situation. Regardless, however, everyone is, at the bottom line, responsible for their own actions. Whether that be setting off bombs or selling crack, it is a choice, and claiming “oh well, it’s a very complex situation” that is not an excuse, no situation is complex enough, or hard enough that setting off bombs or selling crack is a justified action to take. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-idea-for-peace-in-the-jerusalem-isreal/728693/165 "2015-08-27T16:47:50Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > 1- Does my lack of knowledge make either the Israelis or the Palestinians any less violent or any less irrational? Note- to properly object to my question you have to demonstrate that random indiscriminate violence is rational. You’re making more ignorant statements. Neither the Palestinians nor the Israelis are “irrational”. They don’t have a “disagreement” and they don’t “not understand each other”. They have a conflict and they both understand completely the other side’s view. It is the outsiders who don’t understand them or their cause. And no, while both sides engage in brutal violence, the violence is never “random” or “indiscriminate”. They always have specific goals, purposes, and targets. Obviously, that doesn’t mean I’m a defender or either Yasser Arafat, Abu Nidal, Menachem Begin or Ariel Sharon. Seriously, educate yourself. > [@](#): > > my problem is i think logically. Just because you claim you “think logically” doesn’t mean you do or that your arguments are. > [@](#): > > 2- I will answer, for the second time, by telling you that whether I am white or not has no bearing upon the situation. No, but it certainly has a bearing on your analysis and understanding of the situation. Similarly, my being Muslim has on mine of the situation. So, you acted rather harshly to a simple reference to a famous poem “The White Man’s Burden” and demanded to know why people thought you were white. So, are you white or are you not? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-idea-for-peace-in-the-jerusalem-isreal/728693/166 "2015-08-27T16:54:34Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > What I mean is, certainly poverty and desperation will lead to trouble and to temptation, trouble and temptation that I will probably never understand because I am not driven to such a dire situation. Regardless, however, everyone is, at the bottom line, responsible for their own actions. Whether that be setting off bombs or selling crack, it is a choice, and claiming “oh well, it’s a very complex situation” that is not an excuse, no situation is complex enough, or hard enough that setting off bombs or selling crack is a justified action to take. So what do you think of my awesome plan to clean up drug violence? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-idea-for-peace-in-the-jerusalem-isreal/728693/167 "2015-08-27T17:00:12Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Neither the Palestinians nor the Israelis are “irrational”. > > And no, while both sides engage in brutal violence, the violence is never “random” or “indiscriminate”. They always have specific goals, purposes, and targets. When I use the term rational I am - not - referring to precision of methods or tactics. I find it kind of odd, actually, that that is the definition of rational that you employ to this situation. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-idea-for-peace-in-the-jerusalem-isreal/728693/168 "2015-08-27T17:03:46Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > So what do you think of my awesome plan to clean up drug violence? Well, if you corrected for the economic problems - and - you were able to relocate people to a new, better environment, I think it would work out very well, actually. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-idea-for-peace-in-the-jerusalem-isreal/728693/169 "2015-08-27T17:14:53Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Whether that be setting off bombs or selling crack, it is a choice, and claiming “oh well, it’s a very complex situation” that is not an excuse, no situation is complex enough, or hard enough that setting off bombs or selling crack is a justified action to take. Why can’t setting off bombs be an entirely justified action? If someone referred to me and mine as being like unto children before sending in guys in target uniforms bent on forcibly resettling us – well, look, I’m the _first_ to admit that guns have their uses against anyone obliging enough to march up to my door and announce his desire to stop living, goodness knows it isn’t _that,_ but I don’t see why I should rule out bombs. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-idea-for-peace-in-the-jerusalem-isreal/728693/170 "2015-08-27T17:19:44Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Why can’t setting off bombs be an entirely justified action? If someone referred to me and mine as being like unto children before sending in guys in target uniforms bent on forcibly resettling us – well, look, I’m the _first_ to admit that guns have their uses against anyone obliging enough to march up to my door and announce his desire to stop living, goodness knows it isn’t _that,_ but I don’t see why I should rule out bombs. Actually, my plan would be to have the entire political will of the rest of the planet shame them into doing the right thing. If, however, their reaction would be anything like certain posters here making excuses for the continued atrocities, well, international will would not make any difference. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-idea-for-peace-in-the-jerusalem-isreal/728693/171 "2015-08-27T17:25:27Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Actually, my plan would be to have the entire political will of the rest of the planet shame them into doing the right thing. If, however, their reaction would be anything like certain posters here making excuses for the continued atrocities, well, international will would not make any difference. Really, that’s your plan? I notice the word “shame” does not appear until this post. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-idea-for-peace-in-the-jerusalem-isreal/728693/172 "2015-08-27T17:29:25Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Actually, my plan would be to have the entire political will of the rest of the planet shame them into doing the right thing. If, however, their reaction would be anything like certain posters here making excuses for the continued atrocities, well, international will would not make any difference. If the reaction is as I’d expect, then, yes, your proposal will make no difference; indeed, I think this may be one of the few SDMB threads we can get 100% agreement on. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-idea-for-peace-in-the-jerusalem-isreal/728693/173 "2015-08-27T17:41:43Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Well, if you corrected for the economic problems - and - you were able to relocate people to a new, better environment, I think it would work out very well, actually. You’re sending the Palestinians to the Argentine desert but I have to find a new better environment for crack dealing fanatics? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-idea-for-peace-in-the-jerusalem-isreal/728693/174 "2015-08-27T18:02:39Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I think this may be one of the few SDMB threads we can get 100% agreement on. He got pretty close with this other one: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=6898](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=6898) ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-idea-for-peace-in-the-jerusalem-isreal/728693/175 "2015-08-27T18:08:42Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > You’re sending the Palestinians to the Argentine desert but I have to find a new better environment for crack dealing fanatics? For crack dealers, what could possibly be a better environment than crack houses? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-idea-for-peace-in-the-jerusalem-isreal/728693/176 "2015-08-27T18:19:44Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > For crack dealers, what could possibly be a better environment than crack houses? Well he’s taking religious fanatics away from their holy city so I’ll have to wait on the OP’s input before I answer that. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-idea-for-peace-in-the-jerusalem-isreal/728693/177 "2015-08-27T19:15:33Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Actually, my plan would be to have the entire political will of the rest of the planet shame them into doing the right thing. Yet another silly comment. Do you actually think that, to use your terms, “the Jews” and “the Muslims” care what white western Christians think of them? Particularly, white westerners who almost proudly proclaim they know nothing of the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-idea-for-peace-in-the-jerusalem-isreal/728693/178 "2015-08-27T19:24:52Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > When I use the term rational I am - not - referring to precision of methods or tactics. I find it kind of odd, actually, that that is the definition of rational that you employ to this situation. What made you think I was unaware of that. Those are two paragraphs you’re quoting. The first where you made the borderline bigoted comment that the Israelis and Palestinians were “irrational”, while in the second I responded to your claims that they engaged in violence that was “indiscriminate” and “random”. I’m not sure why you didn’t recognize that. Can I ask you a question? This isn’t an insult or a dig, but have you ever been diagnosed with Aspergerger’s or something similar? I ask because my sister has it and while she’s smart, cool, and caring(as I’m sure you are) it can lead to many miscommunications. If that’s true of you it wouldn’t make you dumb or mean you weren’t fit to talk with, but might explain some of the communications issues we’re having. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-idea-for-peace-in-the-jerusalem-isreal/728693/179 "2015-08-27T19:36:57Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Not at all as easy…but definitely more effective. I didn’t say it would be easy. But “just as easy [as ethnically cleansing the area]” ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-idea-for-peace-in-the-jerusalem-isreal/728693/180 "2015-08-27T19:50:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I didn’t say it would be easy. But “just as easy [as ethnically cleansing the area]” I know this is a foolish highjack – but – I think it would be harder to kill all the citizens of a largish city than to forcibly relocate them. They’ll fight back a lot harder. (Of course, classically, you can do it stealthily, so they think they’re being relocated, but when they get to the death-stations, they learn better…too late!) For example, you could force a pretty massive migration out of southern California just by blowing up the canals and pipelines that bring in most of the water. It would even be a semi-voluntary migration. Jerusalem, too, doesn’t have its own water supply, at least not enough for its current population. Then there’s a light crop-dusting with plutonium salts… :eek: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-idea-for-peace-in-the-jerusalem-isreal/728693.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-idea-for-peace-in-the-jerusalem-isreal/728693.md?page=10)