# An Independent Scotland? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 16, 2012, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871 "2012-10-16T11:48:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/41 "2012-10-17T04:07:57Z")
No. The Schengen Treaty was incorporated into the EU treaty, so ratifying the latter automatically means ratifying the former (for new states). ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/42 "2012-10-17T04:46:12Z")
That’s what I meant. So unless things were changed for Scotland (or it was somehow deemed to be entitled to the UK’s exemption from the Schengen provisions), it would eventually have to have entry and exit controls at the English border, wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/43 "2012-10-17T06:19:28Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > I read that. A pretend Pretender? That’s–excessively literal, I guess. > > Though really, I don’t understand what the deal is with monarchists and proving descent from Charlemagne or whatever. Do they really believe that God blessed the big man’s sperm or something? Why not just pick someone from your own country to be king? Because people from their own country are Scottish . . . ---
**Author:** ![notquitekarpov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@notquitekarpov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notquitekarpov)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/44 "2012-10-17T09:05:14Z")
> [@Klostertal](#): > > Pardon my ignorance, but according to Google Maps those two cities are 400 miles apart which is a 7-hour drive. That is a very impractical commute. What am I missing? Teleworking, video and tele-conferencing and air travel with the ocassional train ride thrown in. I do generally spend 60% of the time at my home office and the rest in either London, Munich or Zurich. Got to be very organised and disciplined but the lifestyle suits me and am fortunate that my job role is pretty well suited. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/45 "2012-10-17T12:10:48Z")
Damned Scots! They ruined Scotland! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/46 "2012-10-17T13:51:28Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > That’s what I meant. So unless things were changed for Scotland (or it was somehow deemed to be entitled to the UK’s exemption from the Schengen provisions), it would eventually have to have entry and exit controls at the English border, wouldn’t it? Oh, I see. Yes, I suppose it would. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/47 "2012-10-17T14:58:05Z")
Hogfather: You wouldn’t happen to have any answers to the questions I asked above, would you? Let me repeat them here and add another one: [ol][li]Why are you in favor of independence for Scotland?[/li][li]Why should an independent Scotland maintain a monarchy?[/li]If an independent Scotland were to be a monarchy, why should that monarch be the one currently residing in London?[/ol] ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/48 "2012-10-17T15:28:44Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Paging [Prince Michael of Albany!](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Michael_of_Albany) Or [Francis II](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz,_Duke_of_Bavaria) ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/49 "2012-10-17T16:47:29Z")
> [@Hogfather65](#): > > Also remember we use the GBP and some places in Engiland still dont accept Scottish notes. So we won’t notice - when I went down a couple of months ago I was advised to get English notes to ensure I would have no problems paying - so the GBP in Scotland is treated as a foreign currency by some (not all) places in England. Although the last time I was abroad I got 5% less exchange rate if I used Scottish Notes compared to English - it was a few years back though. All the time I lived in the UK, I often had Scottish notes and I never had a problem, unless you count scores of salesgirls cooing “oh been to Scotland have we?”. Northern Irish notes OTH… I will say this. Scotland entered the Union as a bankrupt nation on the arse end of Europe. Salmond seems determined that it will leave to regain that status. ---
**Author:** ![notquitekarpov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@notquitekarpov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notquitekarpov)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/50 "2012-10-17T16:52:51Z")
[quote=“Monty, post:47, topic:637871”] Hogfather: You wouldn’t happen to have any answers to the questions I asked above, would you? Let me repeat them here and add another one: [ol][li]Why are you in favor of independence for Scotland?[/li][li]Why should an independent Scotland maintain a monarchy?[/li][li]If an independent Scotland were to be a monarchy, why should that monarch be the one currently residing in London?[/ol][/li][/QUOTE] I strongly suspect the answer to (2) and (3) will turn out to be that maintaining the status quo for relatively unimportant bits like the Head of State has been calculated by the SNP to maximize the chances of a YES vote. Just like reducing the voting age to 16+. And retaining NATO membership. It has absolutely nothing to do with conviction. Alex Salmond has principles, but if you don’t like them he has others. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/51 "2012-10-17T16:58:00Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Britain is less of a “single city nation” today than it has been since about 1500. There were already 7 million people living in London in _1912_. I humbly disagree. Back in 1912 while London was indisputably the capital so much _stuff_ went on in other cities, like Liverpool, Birmingham, Bradford, Glasgow, Bristol and so on. Now almost _everything_ of consequence happens in London. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/52 "2012-10-17T19:19:24Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > I am opposed to an independent Scotland. > > It would lead to more bagpipe-playing, which is an intolerable act. Dear god, don’t forget more haggis, an intolerable food. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/53 "2012-10-17T19:22:02Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Sure, the system was eventually broken itself, but the U.K. managed to wreck a lot of Scottish dynamism in the proicess. The best and brightest either left, or just sank down into a dull funk, and that’s a hard habit to break. Modern-day Britain is _still_ disturbingly centralized to my eye. It’s become one of those single-city nations, where one urban area dominates the entire country. This kind of situation is, IMHO, rarely a good thing culturally, socially, or economically in the long run. But it often looks really attractive and fourishing in the early stages. I would tend to agree with you about the hazards of being overly centralized. But I recently read an article in the Economist that’s making me rethink: [Concrete gains](http://www.economist.com/node/21564536). It’s thesis is that euro-zone cities are too small and the economies are not centralized enough, in comparison to the United States. Our cities have more people and larger output than their cities. I don’t know how correct it is (they have a list of academic sources), but it is an interesting idea. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/54 "2012-10-17T19:33:21Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Ironically, some opinion polls have shown support for Scottish independence is higher in England than in Scotland! Can the UK vote to kick Scotland out of the country, kind of like Survivor, but with countries? If it’s a hit over there, we can make an American version 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/55 "2012-10-17T20:03:15Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > Can the UK vote to kick Scotland out of the country, kind of like Survivor, but with countries? If it’s a hit over there, we can make an American version 🙂 Seeing as the UK Parliament is sovereign and can constitutionally do whatever it pleases, it could indeed vote to eject Scotland from the Union (essentially by repealing the 1707 Treaty of Union). 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/56 "2012-10-17T20:07:03Z")
I’m all for it. Mostly for reasons of “fuck yeah!” ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/57 "2012-10-17T20:09:12Z")
I’d rather not. The vast majority of Scots are lovely people and I happily identify myself as British. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/58 "2012-10-18T00:28:42Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > I humbly disagree. Back in 1912 while London was indisputably the capital so much _stuff_ went on in other cities, like Liverpool, Birmingham, Bradford, Glasgow, Bristol and so on. > > Now almost _everything_ of consequence happens in London. That’s an interesting point, actually. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/59 "2012-10-18T01:10:34Z")
Quite probably a lot of it is from moving to a services-based economy. Even if a lot of the donkey work happens somewhere like Milton Keynes, and your call centre is in Hamilton because everyone loves a Scottish accent, you keep your HQ in London. That’s somewhat harder with manufacturing. But it’s a bugger. There was never any doubt in my mind from the age of 12 that I would end up in London for some part of my early career and I expect it’s the same now for any ambitious teenagers. The only exception really that I can think of is R&D/Manufacturing type stuff which is scattered around… although even then a lot of the most advanced R&D is around Cambridge or Oxford. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/60 "2012-10-18T01:12:17Z")
(another thing which just came into my head: women are prettier and the population in general is far thinner in central London. I do wonder why that is) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871.md?page=4)