# An Independent Scotland? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 16, 2012, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871 "2012-10-16T11:48:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/61 "2012-10-18T01:14:21Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > (another thing which just came into my head: women are prettier and the population in general is far thinner in central London. I do wonder why that is) We can blame immigrants for that šŸ˜› ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/62 "2012-10-18T01:39:58Z")
Probably thatā€™s 90% of it šŸ˜ƒ ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/63 "2012-10-18T10:42:51Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > (another thing which just came into my head: women are prettier and the population in general is far thinner in central London. I do wonder why that is) I canā€™t vouch for prettier, as thatā€™s subjective, but the London population certainly does have lower instances of obesity, which I put down to cultural/peer pressure. People who want to ā€˜get onā€™, as you say, head for London. These same people are more likely to spend more effort on their appearance in order to help them get on, and fit in, and have more money to do so. This breeds a huge industry of gyms, personal trainers, cycling commuters and so on. Everyone always seems to be off doing some sporty activity - heck, even _I_ have started jogging. London is also at the forefront of fashion, with many people very conscious of current trends/looks. In this regard itā€™s no different from other fashion capitals like NY and Paris. Of course, thereā€™s plenty of people in London who are ugly and obese, but the people you see commuting to their smart City and West End offices on the tube in the morning tend towards the slimmer, fitter, wealthier and more fashion conscious. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/64 "2012-10-18T11:09:14Z")
> [@notquitekarpov](#): > > I strongly suspect the answer to (2) and (3) will turn out to be that maintaining the status quo for relatively unimportant bits like the Head of State has been calculated by the SNP to maximize the chances of a YES vote. > > Just like reducing the voting age to 16+. > > And retaining NATO membership. > > It has absolutely nothing to do with conviction. Alex Salmond has principles, but if you donā€™t like them he has others. šŸ˜‰ Iā€™m starting to get the impression that Salmond realizes that thereā€™s absolutely no way heā€™ll ever become Prime Minister of the UKā€™s Parliament, so heā€™s happily pandering to those he hopes will create an opportunity for him to become PM of an independent Scotland. What it does to the country (countries?) is of no consequence, of course, so long as he gets to be PM. Is that an accurate impression? ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/65 "2012-10-18T11:31:22Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Iā€™m starting to get the impression that Salmond realizes that thereā€™s absolutely no way heā€™ll ever become Prime Minister of the UKā€™s Parliament, so heā€™s happily pandering to those he hopes will create an opportunity for him to become PM of an independent Scotland. What it does to the country (countries?) is of no consequence, of course, so long as he gets to be PM. > > Is that an accurate impression? Not in the slightest, no. He has always been an Scottish National Party\* MP or MSP, his goal has always been Scottish indepenence, he is currently Scottish first ministerā€¦ \*Who absolutely no one would join if they wanted to be UK PM - check the population of Scotland and compare it to the UK and consider that it hasnā€™t usually even been Scotlandā€™s largest party. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/66 "2012-10-18T11:53:42Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > Not in the slightest, no. He has always been an Scottish National Party\* MP or MSP, his goal has always been Scottish indepenence, he is currently Scottish first ministerā€¦ > > \*Who absolutely no one would join if they wanted to be UK PM - check the population of Scotland and compare it to the UK and consider that it hasnā€™t usually even been Scotlandā€™s largest party. Quite. If his only goal was to become a PM, he wouldā€™ve joined the Labour or Conservative parties years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/67 "2012-10-18T12:46:41Z")
How much traction do those parties have in Scotland? ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/68 "2012-10-18T12:54:14Z")
Labour has loads, tradtionally. Usually the biggest party. Conservatives (well technically itā€™s a different party in Scotland but weā€™ll ignore that for now) have so little traction now that they seriously considered renaming themselves in Scotland a year or two back. That has not _always_ been the case mindā€¦ Thatcherā€™s faultā€¦ by 1997 there were no Tory MPs in Scotland at all. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/69 "2012-10-18T12:58:05Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > How much traction do those parties have in Scotland? The Labour party has by far and away the highest representation of Scottish constituencies in the UK parliament - currently 43 MPs to the SNPā€™s 6. The Conservatives have very poor support north of the border. Remember that our last PM, Gordon Brown, is a Labour MP for a Scottish constituency. Until recently, the SNP was not even the second most popular party in Scotland. The election results for the Scottish Parliament were a surprise to everybody. Labour is currently second behind the SNP in the Scottish Parliament. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/70 "2012-10-18T13:06:21Z")
Itā€™s worth mentioning at this point that the Scottish Parlimaent uses proportional representation (while maintaining constinuency links) where as the Westminster parliament uses first past the post voting with larger constituencies. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/71 "2012-10-19T03:45:10Z")
Wonder how it will effect the SNPā€™s future electoral chances if the referendum fails. Perhaps the Scots can get over their dislike of the Tories. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/72 "2012-10-19T08:35:49Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Wonder how it will effect the SNPā€™s future electoral chances if the referendum fails. Perhaps the Scots can get over their dislike of the Tories. How did defeat affect the Bloc Quebecois? I imagine theyā€™ll keep insisting on referendum after referendum until they get the answer they like. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/73 "2012-10-19T09:11:19Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > How did defeat affect the Bloc Quebecois? I imagine theyā€™ll keep insisting on referendum after referendum until they get the answer they like. The Bloc Quebecois strategy was to keep on insisting on referenda until they get a ā€œyesā€ to a vague question and use that as a mandate to claim the sun and the moon. I think SNP cannot go that route. The challenge for SNP is to somehow get independence without leaving the UK. Many Scots I have noticed do not quite understand that independence=no longer part of UK. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/74 "2012-10-19T10:26:26Z")
It seems to me that Salmond wants independence for Salmondā€™s sake, not Scotlandā€™s. Scotland is going to have huge problems when the oil runs out. Unlike Denmark, Salmond is going to immediately spend the oil revenue, so thereā€™ll be nothing left. A post-oil independent Scotland has little in resources to offer apart from water, whisky, and tourism. The fisheries are about spent. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/75 "2012-10-19T10:44:29Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > The challenge for SNP is to somehow get independence without leaving the UK. Many Scots I have noticed do not quite understand that independence=no longer part of UK. I donā€™t understand either part of this comment. Where have you come across people who donā€™t understand the concept of independence? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/76 "2012-10-19T10:48:58Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > I donā€™t understand either part of this comment. > > Where have you come across people who donā€™t understand the concept of independence? The point is that many people in the independence debate do not quite appreciate what exactly it means to be a separate country or if they do have an inaccurate understanding of the facts. Many seem to think, ā€œjust the same, except no London and no Union Flagā€, when its not true at all. Just look at Salmondā€™s frankly laughable plan to keep the Sterling. ---
**Author:** ![Hogfather65](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/7bcc69/32.png) [@Hogfather65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hogfather65)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/77 "2012-10-19T10:57:47Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Why? Iā€™m A Scott - no other reasone - I want my own government not an English one. > [@Monty](#): > > Really, why? Can I not be a Royalist as well as a Scott? ---
**Author:** ![Hogfather65](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/7bcc69/32.png) [@Hogfather65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hogfather65)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/78 "2012-10-19T10:59:28Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Iā€™ve always found this to be rare. Iā€™m an English/Scottish mutt and so quite regularly over the years have had Scottish money. I donā€™t think I have ever had a problem spending it in England. > > Then again, it has been years since Iā€™ve had a Scottish pound note. According to Wikipedia only one of the Scottish banks issues them anymore. I can see those confusing people in England seeing as the one pound note disappeared there ages ago. More to do with the notes than the amount - I have had the same problem with a Scottish Ā£20 ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/79 "2012-10-19T11:11:25Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > It seems to me that Salmond wants independence for Salmondā€™s sake, not Scotlandā€™s. Scotland is going to have huge problems when the oil runs out. Unlike Denmark, Salmond is going to immediately spend the oil revenue, so thereā€™ll be nothing left. A post-oil independent Scotland has little in resources to offer apart from water, whisky, and tourism. The fisheries are about spent. Thereā€™s also the question of how we carve up the national debt. I remember reading a hilarious comment from Salmond that Scotland shouldnā€™t have to take any of the debt created by the RBS bank bailout. Thatā€™s right, the Royal Bank of Scotland. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/80 "2012-10-19T11:15:47Z")
> [@Hogfather65](#): > > More to do with the notes than the amount - I have had the same problem with a Scottish Ā£20 Itā€™s because some small shopkeepers are worried they wonā€™t be able to spot a fake as they arenā€™t familiar with the notes - it isnā€™t some anti-Scottish conspiracy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871.md?page=5)