# An Independent Scotland? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 16, 2012, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871 "2012-10-16T11:48:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Hogfather65](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/7bcc69/32.png) [@Hogfather65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hogfather65)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/81 "2012-10-19T11:30:01Z")
[quote=“Monty, post:47, topic:637871”] Hogfather: You wouldn’t happen to have any answers to the questions I asked above, would you? Let me repeat them here and add another one: [ol][li]Why are you in favor of independence for Scotland?[/li][li]Why should an independent Scotland maintain a monarchy?[/li][li]If an independent Scotland were to be a monarchy, why should that monarch be the one currently residing in London?[/ol][/li][/QUOTE] I go on my own ideas - why Scotland should or why I think I am in favour. 1. I am in favour because I personally believe Scotland would be better for me being Independent. Grew up seeing Scotland as a suburb of England - if a Scott does something good he’s British or English - if Bad he’s a Scott) Good or Bad we are Scottish. 2. I have always been monarchist so why should that change with Independence? - I suppose its upbringing - working class background but still. 3. You could ask the same for Canada? Why not? London is only 1 - the main one granted – but only 1 of the Royal residences We all vote for our personal reasons - these are mine… :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Hogfather65](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/7bcc69/32.png) [@Hogfather65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hogfather65)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/82 "2012-10-19T11:32:20Z")
> [@notquitekarpov](#): > > I strongly suspect the answer to (2) and (3) will turn out to be that maintaining the status quo for relatively unimportant bits like the Head of State has been calculated by the SNP to maximize the chances of a YES vote. > > Just like reducing the voting age to 16+. > > And retaining NATO membership. > > It has absolutely nothing to do with conviction. Alex Salmond has principles, but if you don’t like them he has others. 😉 Don’t we all :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Hogfather65](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/7bcc69/32.png) [@Hogfather65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hogfather65)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/83 "2012-10-19T11:35:49Z")
> [@jasg](#): > > Dear god, don’t forget more haggis, an intolerable food. I love the sounds of the Bag Pipes and enjoy Haggis but I dont walk around all day dressed like a Cake tin with the Pipes blaring out and eating Haggis every night. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/84 "2012-10-19T11:39:45Z")
> [@Hogfather65](#): > > I’m A Scott - no other reasone - I want my own government not an English one. Unless your name is Scott, you’re a Scot. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Hogfather65](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/7bcc69/32.png) [@Hogfather65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hogfather65)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/85 "2012-10-19T11:50:56Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > It’s because some small shopkeepers are worried they won’t be able to spot a fake as they aren’t familiar with the notes - it isn’t some anti-Scottish conspiracy. Never said it was - just that rather than check - all you get is ‘We dont take Scottish money’ if that was the same here I would have no problem - if its legal tender why should I have to change it before its accepted? ---
**Author:** ![Hogfather65](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/7bcc69/32.png) [@Hogfather65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hogfather65)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/86 "2012-10-19T11:52:45Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Unless your name is Scott, you’re a Scot. 😉 An illiterate one 🙂 but still a proud one ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/87 "2012-10-19T12:00:06Z")
> [@Hogfather65](#): > > 1. I am in favour because I personally believe Scotland would be better for me being Independent. Grew up seeing Scotland as a suburb of England - if a Scott does something good he’s British or English - if Bad he’s a Scott) Good or Bad we are Scottish. May I ask what you base this claim on? I live in London, but I’ve _never_ heard of this kind of thing. I appreciate that 99% of this is Scottish perceptions rather than English treatment, but with respect it does seem to smack of Scottish hypersensitivity rather than a rational basis for seeking independence. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/88 "2012-10-19T12:27:58Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > It seems to me that Salmond wants independence for Salmond’s sake, not Scotland’s. Scotland is going to have huge problems when the oil runs out. Unlike Denmark, Salmond is going to immediately spend the oil revenue, so there’ll be nothing left. A post-oil independent Scotland has little in resources to offer apart from water, whisky, and tourism. The fisheries are about spent. Oh lord, here we go again. Cite, cite and cite please…you know, just like the last time you made those claims. Seriously, I’m about as neutral as you can get on this, but dear lord the nonsense spouted by the vocal ones from both sides has me grinding my teeth. 1. No, the oil is not just about to run out. Bloody hell, you’re living in Aberdeen now as I recall. Go pop down to the Dutch Mill, shout for an ops geologist\*, and then get him to do a run through of recent finds and reserve models. You’ve got years of the stuff left. Lord, I remember the last time we had this discussion and you had to start claiming imminent Shetland independence to try to discount the likely oil revenues for the next 30 years. 2. The north sea fisheries are not “about spent”, and even for the most ravaged of species recoveries are starting to be seen ([Cod stocks in North Sea 'increasing' says Ices report - BBC News](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-18646660)). 3. Like I quoted to you before: [http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-who-loses-if-scotland-goes-it-alone/6524](http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-who-loses-if-scotland-goes-it-alone/6524) “None of the economists FactCheck contacted thought there was a serious risk of an independent Scotland failing to survive.” The only argument is whether it’ll be better off or worse off. Just by dropping the commitment to UK level military expenditure and trident they start off a few billion better off each year. Of course, they also incur new costs (lots of economy of scale considerations, for example health care costs go up if not part of the overall NHS). However that’s a complex argument with lots of ifs, buts and maybes. So please. Stop oversimplifying. Stop claiming it’s definitely a bad idea that will fail. And stop making statements that just aren’t true. \*Friday lunchtime, just down from ConocoPhillips and BG’s office, there’ll be a dozen. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/89 "2012-10-19T12:32:30Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > May I ask what you base this claim on? I live in London, but I’ve _never_ heard of this kind of thing. It’s such a well known phenomenon there’s standing jokes about it. > **[モデルを目指す人必見！プロが教えるキャリアアップのコツ](http://www.andymurrayometer.com/)** > > 皆さん、こんにちは！元トップモデルで、現在はモデル育成コンサルタントをしているRina T.です。 華やかなラ “Rafa Nadal’s exit from Wimbledon boosts Andy Murray’s Britishness by 6%. Murray set for 80% Britishness.” ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/90 "2012-10-19T12:51:13Z")
> [@jasg](#): > > Dear god, don’t forget more haggis, an intolerable food. Considering Americans invented the modern incarnation of hotdogs, as well as many other processed meat products, I don’t think they can criticize haggis (particularly as haggis tastes great) ---
**Author:** ![Hogfather65](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/7bcc69/32.png) [@Hogfather65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hogfather65)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/91 "2012-10-19T12:53:40Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > May I ask what you base this claim on? I live in London, but I’ve _never_ heard of this kind of thing. > > I appreciate that 99% of this is Scottish perceptions rather than English treatment, but with respect it does seem to smack of Scottish hypersensitivity rather than a rational basis for seeking independence. Look at the news coverage about something like football fans - I dont follow football so no bias in it for that - if scottish fans riot - its Scottish supporters - if English Fans riot it British supporters I know this is a news bias but thats what is shown. Same for good stuff happening - a Scot does something of note he’s a British Hero (look back at some of the Andy Murray stuff) if he screws up - Scotish loser. [The ‘Union Hi-Jack’ of Andy Murray](http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-opinion/5815-the-union-hi-jack-of-andy-murray) [From chippy Jock to great Briton in one afternoon](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2171198/Wimbledon-2012-Andy-Murray-proved-folly-trying-break-kingdom.html) [Andy Murray: great Scot - a British champion](http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/sep/11/andy-murray-scot-british-champion) > **[US Open 2012: Andy Murray makes history with first grand slam title and the...](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/tennis/usopen/9534386/US-Open-2012-Andy-Murray-makes-history-with-first-grand-slam-title-and-the-first-by-British-male-in-76-years.html)** > > It only took 237 Grand Slam tournaments. But Great Britain has a new champion to put alongside the memory of Fred Perry, and his name is Andy Murray. The only thing I can say - I Love the English but Hate England. I enjoy holidays in England but then again I enjoy holidays in Turkey but dont want to be European either. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/92 "2012-10-19T13:05:47Z")
Hmm, must have passed me by - I don’t follow sport all that much but I recall the football riots articles I’ve read all say ‘England’, as to refer to a British football team is ludicrous. I think haggis is tasty! ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/93 "2012-10-19T13:22:31Z")
> [@Hogfather65](#): > > I go on my own ideas - why Scotland should or why I think I am in favour. > > 1. I am in favour because I personally believe Scotland would be better for me being Independent. Grew up seeing Scotland as a suburb of England - if a Scott does something good he’s British or English - if Bad he’s a Scott) Good or Bad we are Scottish. Okay. _How_, specifically, would Scotland be better for you if it were independent of the UK? > [@](#): > > 1. I have always been monarchist so why should that change with Independence? - I suppose its upbringing - working class background but still. What purpose would a monarchy serve for Scotland and, dare I mention this, who’s going to pay for it? > [@](#): > > 1. You could ask the same for Canada? Why not? London is only 1 - the main one granted – but only 1 of the Royal residences I’ve asked some Canadians that very question before. A couple responded in favor of maintaining the monarchy and a couple opined that it’s an antiquated notion with not much relevance to them. > [@](#): > > We all vote for our personal reasons - these are mine… :dubious: Thanks for answering. I hope you expand your answers on questions 1 & 2. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/94 "2012-10-19T13:30:29Z")
**Monty** , might I suggest that if you want to discuss the monarchy, you create a new thread? ---
**Author:** ![Hogfather65](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/7bcc69/32.png) [@Hogfather65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hogfather65)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/95 "2012-10-19T13:34:29Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Hmm, must have passed me by - I don’t follow sport all that much but I recall the football riots articles I’ve read all say ‘England’, as to refer to a British football team is ludicrous. > > I think haggis is tasty! Funny they never mention a British team but its usually british fans. I have looked for cites but I must agree that all I have found have mentioned English rather than British - it must have bee more prevalent when I was younger. :smack: so I am happy to withdraw that about reports in football. but if you look at the Andy Murray stuff its still there. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/96 "2012-10-19T13:39:38Z")
I think there may have been a conscious effort on the parts of certain quarters to be aware of the English/Scottish/British divide. It’s a shame it still appears prevalent in tennis. Speaking for myself, it’s not a practice I tend to follow. Credit where credit’s due, and all that. ---
**Author:** ![nomdenet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4af34b/32.png) [@nomdenet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nomdenet)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/97 "2012-10-19T13:41:25Z")
I could have sworn there was a study that concluded that the “British when you win, Scottish when you lose” thing is a myth. Of course you can cherry-pick examples of it. ---
**Author:** ![Hogfather65](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/7bcc69/32.png) [@Hogfather65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hogfather65)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/98 "2012-10-19T13:48:34Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Okay. _How_, specifically, would Scotland be better for you if it were independent of the UK? I think its more about feeling more in control of who we have in government. Look at the last election. SNP got the magority in Scotland but it was the coalition that is in power. So I feel as if it does not matter to me if I vote in a UK election - whereas in a Scottish election I can. I suppose that sounds weak but its how I see it. > [@Monty](#): > > What purpose would a monarchy serve for Scotland and, dare I mention this, who’s going to pay for it? The same as they serve in England, Canada or where ever. As official heads of State. They do what they do best. This is a personal think to me - I dont really care about the finantial or political issues regarding them monarchy. If the UK went a republic today it would not change my opinion of the Monarchy. Cavalier at heart. _Does the monarchy not own loads of land in the UK? we dont fully support them._ > [@Monty](#): > > I’ve asked some Canadians that very question before. A couple responded in favor of maintaining the monarchy and a couple opined that it’s an antiquated notion with not much relevance to them. Same as people up here - even in my family - to each their own > [@Monty](#): > > Thanks for answering. I hope you expand your answers on questions 1 & 2. I hope it does but I know that it may look weak as I am a stubourn old git and have set opinions. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/99 "2012-10-19T13:50:43Z")
Is this “adding a t to Scot” thing a highland convention I missed? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Hogfather65](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/7bcc69/32.png) [@Hogfather65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hogfather65)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/100 "2012-10-19T13:51:36Z")
> [@nomdenet](#): > > I could have sworn there was a study that concluded that the “British when you win, Scottish when you lose” thing is a myth. Of course you can cherry-pick examples of it. I agree with this to a point but its mainly how I remember the news being reported at the time - I have hunted for some cites but found 0. so I am happy to blame faulty/bias memory on this. It does not change my opinion but I am aware I may be mistaken. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871.md?page=6)