# An Independent Scotland? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 16, 2012, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871 "2012-10-16T11:48:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/101 "2012-10-19T13:53:56Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Oh lord, here we go again. Cite, cite and cite please…you know, just like the last time you made those claims. Seriously, I’m about as neutral as you can get on this, but dear lord the nonsense spouted by the vocal ones from both sides has me grinding my teeth. > > 1. No, the oil is not just about to run out. Learn to read what I wrote and stop inventing. No, it’s not about to run out - I never said that it was - but it will run out in the nearish future. 10 years? 20 years? 50? It will run out. Of course, if you’re only looking 5 years ahead, the picture is indeed rosy. > [@](#): > > Bloody hell, you’re living in Aberdeen now as I recall. Go pop down to the Dutch Mill, shout for an ops geologist\*, and then get him to do a run through of recent finds and reserve models. You’ve got years of the stuff left. Yes, we do. You may recall that my brother does reservoir modelling. But there aren’t that many years left, and it will run out, and then what? > [@](#): > > Lord, I remember the last time we had this discussion and you had to start claiming imminent Shetland independence to try to discount the likely oil revenues for the next 30 years. Perhaps you should have gone back and re-read that thread: you mis-remember. I mooted Shetland independence for dislike of Edinburgh rule. > [@](#): > > 1. The north sea fisheries are not “about spent”, and even for the most ravaged of species recoveries are starting to be seen ([Cod stocks in North Sea 'increasing' says Ices report - BBC News](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-18646660)). Umm… did you actually read that article? Stocks aren’t yet sustainable. Look at the graphs here: [http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/science/ocr\_gateway\_pre\_2011/environment/5\_population\_sustainability5.shtml](http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/science/ocr_gateway_pre_2011/environment/5_population_sustainability5.shtml) and here: > **[BBC NEWS | Europe | EU fish quota deal hammered out](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6197433.stm)** > > Cod fishing will be cut further as European Union ministers reach a deal to help protect depleted stocks. > [@](#): > > “None of the economists FactCheck contacted thought there was a serious risk of an independent Scotland failing to survive.” Learn to read and stop inventing. I didn’t say an independent Scotland won’t survive. But survival is different from prospering. > [@](#): > > So please. Stop oversimplifying. Stop claiming it’s definitely a bad idea that will fail. Learn to read and stop inventing: I didn’t say that an independent Scotland will fail. > [@](#): > > And stop making statements that just aren’t true. North Sea oil will run out. It’s just a question of when. Are you denying that? And I note that you didn’t even address my comment about Salmond. ---
**Author:** ![Hogfather65](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/7bcc69/32.png) [@Hogfather65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hogfather65)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/102 "2012-10-19T13:54:51Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Is this “adding a t to Scot” thing a highland convention I missed? 😕 its an affectation of mine - sorry - Have a couple of friends and familly that are Scott’s (or Scot Scott’s and 1 English Scott)😃 ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/103 "2012-10-19T14:14:46Z")
And, for the record, I’m undecided. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/104 "2012-10-19T14:26:24Z")
> [@Hogfather65](#): > > So I feel as if it does not matter to me if I vote in a UK election - whereas in a Scottish election I can. Really? When Scottish votes are a key constituency for Labour? Tony Blair and Gordon Brown essentially led a Scottish party to run Britain for more than a decade. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/105 "2012-10-19T14:34:26Z")
And Britain’s still run by a Scot. ---
**Author:** ![Hogfather65](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/7bcc69/32.png) [@Hogfather65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hogfather65)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/106 "2012-10-19T14:35:13Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Really? When Scottish votes are a key constituency for Labour? Tony Blair and Gordon Brown essentially led a Scottish party to run Britain for more than a decade. Funy never appeared like that to me. (Rose tinted glasses) ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/107 "2012-10-19T14:40:22Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > It’s because some small shopkeepers are worried they won’t be able to spot a fake as they aren’t familiar with the notes - it isn’t some anti-Scottish conspiracy. I had trouble with an NI bank note in Manchester one time. The teller said “wow, this is completely different, how can I tell if it’s real?” and I said “well usually if you’re trying to counterfeit a bank note you make it look the same as other notes.” Dude laughed and accepted it. ---
**Author:** ![Bakhesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Bakhesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bakhesh)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/108 "2012-10-19T14:41:02Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > The Labour party has by far and away the highest representation of Scottish constituencies in the UK parliament - currently 43 MPs to the SNP’s 6. The Conservatives have very poor support north of the border. Remember that our last PM, Gordon Brown, is a Labour MP for a Scottish constituency. Under the last government, we had 2 Scottish Prime Ministers (Tony Blair, born in Edinburgh, and Gordon Brown), Chancellor (Brown again), Home Secretary (John Reid), Foreign Minister (Robin Cook), Lord Chancellor (Lord Irvine), Health Ministers (Reid again, who really shouldn’t have been eligible for the job, seeing as he was elected to a Scottish Constituency, and Scottish Health Care is now devolved to the Scottish Parliament), Defence Minister (George Robertson) not to mention Wendy Alexander, Yvette Cooper, Doug Henderson etc etc Even in the current cabinet you have Iain Duncan Smith, Michael Gove, Danny Alexander and the Lord Strathclyde. Scots are pretty well represented in Whitehall really ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/109 "2012-10-19T14:43:32Z")
Yep, and look where that got us … ---
**Author:** ![notquitekarpov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@notquitekarpov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notquitekarpov)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/110 "2012-10-19T14:50:28Z")
Especially well represented given Scotland (as well as Wales and Northern Ireland) all have significantly smaller electorates per seat in Westminster. [www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN05677.pdf](http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN05677.pdf) If anything it is English interests that need to be strengthened for a fairer UK parliament - but most English are willing to concede that position to support the Union. Oh - and Hogfather - it is a \*\*\*British \*\*\*government in Westminster not an \*\*\*English \*\*\*one. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/111 "2012-10-19T15:19:58Z")
> [@Bakhesh](#): > > Under the last government, we had 2 Scottish Prime Ministers (Tony Blair, born in Edinburgh, and Gordon Brown), Chancellor (Brown again), Home Secretary (John Reid), Foreign Minister (Robin Cook), Lord Chancellor (Lord Irvine), Health Ministers (Reid again, who really shouldn’t have been eligible for the job, seeing as he was elected to a Scottish Constituency, and Scottish Health Care is now devolved to the Scottish Parliament), Defence Minister (George Robertson) not to mention Wendy Alexander, Yvette Cooper, Doug Henderson etc etc > > Even in the current cabinet you have Iain Duncan Smith, Michael Gove, Danny Alexander and the Lord Strathclyde. > > Scots are pretty well represented in Whitehall really Add to that the fact that Scottish (and Welsh & N. Irish) MPs get to vote on matters that only affect the English, such as raising university tuition fees. If anyone should feel disgruntled, it’s the English. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/112 "2012-10-19T15:24:43Z")
> [@Hogfather65](#): > > Funny they never mention a British team but its usually british fans. > > I have looked for cites but I must agree that all I have found have mentioned English rather than British - it must have bee more prevalent when I was younger. :smack: so I am happy to withdraw that about reports in football. but if you look at the Andy Murray stuff its still there. Interestingly, I noticed the stuff about Andy Murray because all of my (Scottish) life I’ve been hearing about the phenomenon you describe, but I never really saw much evidence of it. With Murray, I do feel it has been noticeable. He’s the exception, though, rather than the rule IME. ---
**Author:** ![Hogfather65](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/7bcc69/32.png) [@Hogfather65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hogfather65)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/113 "2012-10-19T15:28:56Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > Yep, and look where that got us … :D:D ---
**Author:** ![Hogfather65](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/7bcc69/32.png) [@Hogfather65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hogfather65)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/114 "2012-10-19T15:30:07Z")
> [@notquitekarpov](#): > > Especially well represented given Scotland (as well as Wales and Northern Ireland) all have significantly smaller electorates per seat in Westminster. > > [www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN05677.pdf](http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN05677.pdf) > > If anything it is English interests that need to be strengthened for a fairer UK parliament - but most English are willing to concede that position to support the Union. > > Oh - and Hogfather - it is a \*\*\*British \*\*\*government in Westminster not an \*\*\*English \*\*\*one. I know the definition - but to me it English ---
**Author:** ![Hogfather65](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/7bcc69/32.png) [@Hogfather65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hogfather65)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/115 "2012-10-19T15:38:03Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > Add to that the fact that Scottish (and Welsh & N. Irish) MPs get to vote on matters that only affect the English, such as raising university tuition fees. If anyone should feel disgruntled, it’s the English. Agree I want the Scot’s to vote on Scotish matters - they should only vote on things that affect Scotland - same as English voting on anything that affects England. (the only thing at the moment that should be voted on by all is if it affects the UK as a whole) _Hope I used the correct term affect/effect always get me._ ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/116 "2012-10-19T16:01:44Z")
What you are referring to, Hogfather, is the West Lothian Question - the claim that it’s unfair that Scots can vote on English affairs but not the other way round. I, personally, disagree; I think it’s completely fine for Scots to vote on English affairs because England’s demographic and economic dominance means that its decisions impact the other countries in the Union. And I speak as someone who’s family can be traced to the Domesday book to be living in Essex! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/117 "2012-10-19T16:43:24Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > Interestingly, I noticed the stuff about Andy Murray because all of my (Scottish) life I’ve been hearing about the phenomenon you describe, but I never really saw much evidence of it. With Murray, I do feel it has been noticeable. He’s the exception, though, rather than the rule IME. UK sportsmen compete under the British banner in tennis, so it’s not really surprising. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/118 "2012-10-19T18:35:30Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > UK sportsmen compete under the British banner in tennis, so it’s not really surprising. Well, my point was that he does seem to have faced a degree of animosity from some sections of the UK media because of his Scottishness. The complaint many Scots level is that Scottish sports stars are “Scottish” when they lose and “British” when they win, at least according to the national press. In general, I think this charge is nonsense, but it does seem to have some merit when one considers Andy Murray. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/119 "2012-10-19T22:16:28Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > Well, my point was that he does seem to have faced a degree of animosity from some sections of the UK media because of his Scottishness. The complaint many Scots level is that Scottish sports stars are “Scottish” when they lose and “British” when they win, at least according to the national press. > > In general, I think this charge is nonsense, but it does seem to have some merit when one considers Andy Murray. Murray didn’t endear himself to the press or English with some of his comments as a raw teenager, notably his response of “anyone but England” when asked who he wanted to win the World Cup. However, he has matured a lot since then and has recanted that particular comment. It’s an area of much misunderstanding. I personally have never noticed the winner=British, loser = Scottish thing (I’m English). I have seen Scottish people being thoroughly unaware of the level of support amongst the English for Scottish teams and players. ---
**Author:** ![Hogfather65](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/7bcc69/32.png) [@Hogfather65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hogfather65)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/120 "2012-10-19T22:29:09Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > What you are referring to, Hogfather, is the West Lothian Question - the claim that it’s unfair that Scots can vote on English affairs but not the other way round. > > I, personally, disagree; I think it’s completely fine for Scots to vote on English affairs because England’s demographic and economic dominance means that its decisions impact the other countries in the Union. > > And I speak as someone who’s family can be traced to the Domesday book to be living in Essex! No I pesonally thing is whats good for the goose - if we dont want English voting on Scottish affairs then its only right Scot’s dont vote on English affairs - seems reasonable to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871.md?page=7)