# An Independent Scotland? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 16, 2012, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871 "2012-10-16T11:48:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/141 "2012-10-23T11:08:28Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > Unfortunately, Scotland wouldn’t own the oil/gas fields entirely as the border doesn’t run E to W, but , SW to NE. > > Which means the U.K. owns a LOT of the oil fields. > > But this is not so important because they will run out in the not so distant future. > > The English taxpayer subsidises every single Scot, every single day of every single year. As posted before: 1. The vast majority of the fields are in Scottish water [http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-who-loses-if-scotland-goes-it-alone/6524](http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-who-loses-if-scotland-goes-it-alone/6524) > [@](#): > > Scottish waters – defined by the line of demarcation used in the fishing industry – accounted for 91.1 per cent of UK North Sea revenue in 2008/09 For production figures in 2011, it was just over 93%. 1. The stuff is not about to run out in the immediate future. With new finds in West of Shetland and other regions, redevelopments of fields such as Clair, and improved production methods, you’re looking at a lot of remaining oil. Have a non-techy cite here: > **[North Sea Still Has 'Significant Unharvested Oil Reserves'](https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2011/11/18/north-sea-oil-reserve-sti_n_1101059.html)** > > North Sea Still Has 'Significant Unharvested Oil Reserves' > [@](#): > > The North Sea could still contain more than £1 trillion-worth of oil and gas, energy minister Fergus Ewing has said. > > Mr Ewing told MSPs that with “significant unharvested reserves” it is possible that as many as 24 billion barrels can still be extracted. > > He spoke out on the issue during a debate on oil and gas, a month after energy firm BP announced a second phase of development at the giant Clair field, west of the Shetland Islands. 1. The claim that “The English taxpayer subsidises every single Scot, every single day of every single year” is as blatantly wrong as the opposing claim that Scotland’s been cruelly robbed by the English of their oil wealth. Some years Scotland has been a net recipient of tax revenue, some years it’s been a net generator of tax revenue. See the cite above, which shows that in 2008/2009 Scotland generated a £1.3 billion surplus in tax revenues, or to put it another way every Scot coughed up £250 to subside the rest of the UK. Funnily enough the zealots on both sides would much rather claim that they’re subsidizing the others, but it’s just not true. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/142 "2012-10-23T11:20:01Z")
Well done Gary Kumquat, it’s good to get some real stats in this thread; it seems that neither England nor Scotland consistently subsidises the other but in fact it change as time goes by. It’s essential that this information be out there so the Union isn’t destroyed over pointless and unfounded bad feelings. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/143 "2012-10-23T11:36:10Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Well done Gary Kumquat, it’s good to get some real stats in this thread; it seems that neither England nor Scotland consistently subsidises the other but in fact it change as time goes by. It’s essential that this information be out there so the Union isn’t destroyed over pointless and unfounded bad feelings. Thanks! Strangely, I’m also currently having the exact opposite argument on another board, where some fiercely nationalist Scots are telling me how badly Scotland has been pillaged over the years, and how definite their economic success will be as soon as they get Independence. The problem seems to be that it’s a very emotive issue, with some bloody awful misinformation from the opposing sides. I don’t particularly care either way (tendencies would probably be unionist, if only to see Alex Salmond pissed off) but I’ll be bloody glad when the vote is over just to see an end to the rhetoric. ---
**Author:** ![manila](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@manila](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manila)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/144 "2012-10-23T11:39:44Z")
Scotland, I believe, has free university education for residents and foreign students. ( I understand this does not include English or Welsh students) Most Scottish degrees take a year longer than equivalent courses in established (or red brick) English colleges. Is this financed by current collective British taxes? If so can the same level of free higher education be financed by purely Scottish revenues? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/145 "2012-10-23T11:54:31Z")
> [@manila](#): > > Scotland, I believe, has free university education for residents and foreign students. ( I understand this does not include English or Welsh students) > > Most Scottish degrees take a year longer than equivalent courses in established (or red brick) English colleges. Is this financed by current collective British taxes? If so can the same level of free higher education be financed by purely Scottish revenues? Correct on the first, not quite on the second, and maybe to the third. Degrees can be 3 or 4 years in Scotland, depending on subject. For some of the 4 year course, students with good A Levels or Advanced Highers can go directly into the 2nd year, e.g. [http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/admissions/ug/apply/howwhen/Directentryintosecondyear/](http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/admissions/ug/apply/howwhen/Directentryintosecondyear/) “It is possible for well-qualified school leavers to apply for admission directly into the second year of some Science degree programmes. This permits a BSc Honours degree to be obtained in three years instead of four” It’s also possible to leave School with highers at the end of 5th year and go straight into Uni, effectively shortening your school period by 1 year, so leading to an overall equivalent time in education (5 years secondary school, 4 year degree, versus 6 years in secondary school, 3 year degree) As for whether the cost of free places is still possible, please see above posts. It depends (as do free prescriptions, and care for the elderly at home) ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/146 "2012-10-23T12:10:28Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Thanks! Strangely, I’m also currently having the exact opposite argument on another board, where some fiercely nationalist Scots are telling me how badly Scotland has been pillaged over the years, and how definite their economic success will be as soon as they get Independence. > > The problem seems to be that it’s a very emotive issue, with some bloody awful misinformation from the opposing sides. I don’t particularly care either way (tendencies would probably be unionist, if only to see Alex Salmond pissed off) but I’ll be bloody glad when the vote is over just to see an end to the rhetoric. I’d be interested to see your debates with the Nats! Would you be able to link? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/147 "2012-10-23T12:13:34Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > I’d be interested to see your debates with the Nats! Would you be able to link? pm sent. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/148 "2012-10-23T12:16:40Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Consider also the predicted increases in food prices globally, and ask yourself what affect that will have on a country that is 75% agricultural land. Is most of that grazing lands, or is it mostly feed and/or eating grain? Because if it is mostly grazing lands, then they won’t _have_ to change their agriculture that much over the next 40 years when energy becomes too expensive for 20th century farming techniques. And as northern grasslands become more productive with global warming, unless of course the Gulf Stream shifts or dies. Speaking of which, won’t that improve their grain productivity as well? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/149 "2012-10-23T12:26:47Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Is most of that grazing lands, or is it mostly feed and/or eating grain? Because if it is mostly grazing lands, then they won’t _have_ to change their agriculture that much over the next 40 years when energy becomes too expensive for 20th century farming techniques. And as northern grasslands become more productive with global warming, unless of course the Gulf Stream shifts or dies. Speaking of which, won’t that improve their grain productivity as well? All bloody good questions, which illustrate why predicting economic likelihood for the next 40 years is a bit of an exercise in random. Optimistic. Enough money is invested from oil revenues to allow massive increase in renewable production (and an efficient distribution mechanism), offsetting the increase in energy costs for non-renewable sources, allowing for the massively energy subsidized methods of modern farming to continue. Weather changes either do no not decrease yields, or possibly even increase them. Pessimistic. Nothing is done, and in 20 years time as the price of crude continues to increase, food prices shoot up in Scotland, which is already suffering from drop in production and revenues. This is made worse by severe flooding and poor summers leading to a drop in yields. Of course, the same questions can be thrown at pretty much any country in Europe. If anything Scotland’s in a relatively strong position for these concerns, and a much more concerning time faces England (higher population, lower percentage foodland, water concerns, less access to renewable energy, etc). ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/150 "2012-10-23T12:30:18Z")
You have me curious now. If admission into the EU requires unanimous consent of all the current member countries, what would Scotland have to do to ensure England (or, I guess, the UK of England, Wales, and Nothern Ireland) doesn’t veto Scotland’s entrance perhaps in a retaliatory gesture? I’m not saying the UK government of the day would actually do that, but I guess it is a possibility. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/151 "2012-10-23T12:35:10Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > You have me curious now. If admission into the EU requires unanimous consent of all the current member countries, what would Scotland have to do to ensure England (or, I guess, the UK of England, Wales, and Nothern Ireland) doesn’t veto Scotland’s entrance perhaps in a retaliatory gesture? I’m not saying the UK government of the day would actually do that, but I guess it is a possibility. To be honest I don’t know. I’m not even sure if the breakup of the Union wouldn’t in the EU’s eyes be seen as the creation of two completely new States, thereby meaning both England/Wales/N. Ireland and Scotland would have to apply to rejoin separately. If it’s not, I don’t see England doing such a thing, but other countries may do out of principle. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/152 "2012-10-23T12:38:58Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > You have me curious now. If admission into the EU requires unanimous consent of all the current member countries, what would Scotland have to do to ensure England (or, I guess, the UK of England, Wales, and Nothern Ireland) doesn’t veto Scotland’s entrance perhaps in a retaliatory gesture? I’m not saying the UK government of the day would actually do that, but I guess it is a possibility. Things get really muddy here. Positively legal in fact. For instance, if Scotland splits from the Union, it probably does mean Scotland has to re-apply: > **[Barroso casts doubt on independent Scotland's EU membership rights](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/sep/12/barroso-doubt-scotland-eu-membership)** > > EC president appears to contradict Alex Salmond's claim that Scotland would automatically remain in European Union “A state has to be a democracy first of all, and that state has to apply to become a member of the European Union and all the other member states have to give their consent.” So any nation could block that…but then it gets even more complicated, as a House of Commons report raised the following problem: [http://news.stv.tv/scotland/189910-independent-scotland-would-have-to-apply-for-eu-membership/](http://news.stv.tv/scotland/189910-independent-scotland-would-have-to-apply-for-eu-membership/) "A report by the House of Commons Library at Westminster previously set out the potential options for Scotland in the event of independence. As well as automatic or renegotiated entry for Scotland, it suggested the rest of the UK could be forced out by the dissolution of the Union. Under that scenario, England, Wales and Northern Ireland would also be a new state and have to negotiate terms of entry to the EU." In other words, no-one’s entirely sure how it will play out, but no doubt lots of political wrangling will ensue. ---
**Author:** ![manila](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@manila](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manila)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/153 "2012-10-23T12:53:16Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > You have me curious now. If admission into the EU requires unanimous consent of all the current member countries, what would Scotland have to do to ensure England (or, I guess, the UK of England, Wales, and Nothern Ireland) doesn’t veto Scotland’s entrance perhaps in a retaliatory gesture? I’m not saying the UK government of the day would actually do that, but I guess it is a possibility. I suspect that it would be countries like Spain who would voice the greater objections as they would not wish their own separatist movements ( Basques) to get any encouragement seeing an independent Scotland welcomed into the European Union. If Scotland gains independence from the UK it would be in the UK’s interest to see it become a viable if not flourishing new state. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/154 "2012-10-23T12:55:13Z")
Quite so manila: Scotland and the rest of the Union have been a single economic unit for a long, long time. It would be disastrous to both economies if a wall were suddenly erected. The border needs to remain porous to minimise the shock to both economies. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/155 "2012-10-23T15:15:52Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Under that scenario, England, Wales and Northern Ireland would also be a new state and have to negotiate terms of entry to the EU." That’s very interesting, as the rump of the U.K. might take the opportunity to leave the EU. Support for the EU is very luke-warm, especially among Tories. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/156 "2012-10-23T15:19:39Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Is most of that grazing lands, or is it mostly feed and/or eating grain? Because if it is mostly grazing lands, then they won’t _have_ to change their agriculture that much over the next 40 years when energy becomes too expensive for 20th century farming techniques. And as northern grasslands become more productive with global warming, unless of course the Gulf Stream shifts or dies. Speaking of which, won’t that improve their grain productivity as well? From [here](http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2012/06/6894/74) > [@](#): > > The total agricultural area in Scotland including common grazing totalled 6.21 million hectares in 2011, representing 80% of the total land area in Scotland. This proportion of total land cover compares slightly higher than England (71%) and Northern Ireland (76%) but lower than Wales (83%). > > The majority (60%) of agricultural land in Scotland was covered by rough grazing and common grazings (3.70 million hectares), a far higher proportion than in other UK countries due to large areas of upland agricultural land in Scotland being suitable only for livestock grazing (Chart C1). In contrast grass covered 22% of agricultural land in Scotland (1.36 million hectares), a far lower proportion than elsewhere in the UK. Note that the rough grazing land is, for the most part, only good for sheep. Cows don’t like steep hillsides much. But in any case, the vast majority of livestock is fed by grazing. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/157 "2012-10-23T15:29:01Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Note that the rough grazing land is, for the most part, only good for sheep. I’d guess that when grazing becomes essential, all manner of species better suited to rough grazing will become the norm. Cows are really expensive in energy costs, compared to the likes of goats and alpacas. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/158 "2012-10-23T16:23:35Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > I’d guess that when grazing becomes essential, all manner of species better suited to rough grazing will become the norm. Cows are really expensive in energy costs, compared to the likes of goats and alpacas. Good point. I’ve seen a couple of places with alpacas and llamas in the past few years, and there’s plenty of wild goats around. What makes cows so much more expensive in energy terms? Is that mostly the dairy breeds? ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/159 "2012-10-23T16:47:22Z")
Scotland’s potential for wind power is pretty good too is it not? ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871/160 "2012-10-23T18:09:40Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > As posted before: > > 1. The vast majority of the fields are in Scottish water > > [http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-who-loses-if-scotland-goes-it-alone/6524](http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-who-loses-if-scotland-goes-it-alone/6524) > > For production figures in 2011, it was just over 93%. > > 1. The stuff is not about to run out in the immediate future. With new finds in West of Shetland and other regions, redevelopments of fields such as Clair, and improved production methods, you’re looking at a lot of remaining oil. Have a non-techy cite here: > > [North Sea Oil Reserve 'Still Has More Than 20 Billion Barrels Left' | HuffPost UK Politics](http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2011/11/18/north-sea-oil-reserve-sti_n_1101059.html) > > 1. The claim that “The English taxpayer subsidises every single Scot, every single day of every single year” is as blatantly wrong as the opposing claim that Scotland’s been cruelly robbed by the English of their oil wealth. Some years Scotland has been a net recipient of tax revenue, some years it’s been a net generator of tax revenue. See the cite above, which shows that in 2008/2009 Scotland generated a £1.3 billion surplus in tax revenues, or to put it another way every Scot coughed up £250 to subside the rest of the UK. Funnily enough the zealots on both sides would much rather claim that they’re subsidizing the others, but it’s just not true. I suggest that you read your own links. The first one that you supplied seems to disagree with what you say. (Though there is a bizarre attempt to say that Treasury figures are and have been consistently wrong) The second quotes a tame expert, putting in glowing terms to Scots Nationalists the future of N.S. gas/oil, but unfortunately it is hemmed in by “Could” and “possibly” etc. Personally I hope that he is right, but it comes acros as a wish fulfillment fantasy. In effect telling his audience what they wanted to hear. If the future for an independant Scotland turns out to be as rosy as the SNP politicians say it would be, then as I said before, I for one will be taking the first flight north, soonest. If I can get a ticket of course, as I suspect that demand will be very high. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-scotland/637871.md?page=9)