# An Independent Southern U.S. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2012, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511 "2012-11-19T16:20:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/1 "2012-11-19T16:20:18Z")
In [thread=672480]this thread[/thread], BabaBooey proposed the hypothetical seccession of a “United States of the Southeastern Conference” in the hopes that the new nation would offer more economic and social freedom than the current United States. There was also discussion of a Gulf Coast nation, and a Republic of Louisiana. I don’t think his ideas have merit, but what struck me about the thread was the harsh attacks on this hypothetical USotSEC. Here’s a few examples: > [@Why the hostility towards states that want to secede?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/76): > > The Republic of Louisiana wouldn’t be some bastion of economic freedom and liberty - it would be a socially conservative, evangelical theocracy. > [@Why the hostility towards states that want to secede?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/124): > > Given how the GOP have run things the last 12 years, I am pretty sure what we would rapidly see would be a Fundamentalist Christian version of Egypt, with the rich being VERY rich and holding all the cards, and the hoi poloi being screwed. > [@Why the hostility towards states that want to secede?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/133): > > I’m a Louisiana boy, a proud LSU alumni, and I’d be terrified to live in the Nation of Louisiana- what makes you think they’d allow abortion to be legal? Or homosexuality? Or keep religion and state separate? From my understanding of Louisiana’s (and neighboring states’) electorate, these freedoms would be very much in doubt. > [@Why the hostility towards states that want to secede?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/136): > > Because when I hear about a republic of Louisiana, I wonder who Bobby Jindal would appoint as Witchmaster General. > [@Why the hostility towards states that want to secede?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/146): > > Are you confident we wouldn’t see a sudden return of “sundown towns”? I sure ain’t. For me, a resident of Kentucky, this seems to border on caricature of the South as unchanged since the days of Bull Connor. And so I ask, were the Southeastern U.S. to suddenly become an independent nation through whatever means, what sort of a nation would come of it? An oppressive theocracy, something very close to the present U.S., or something in between? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/2 "2012-11-19T16:40:38Z")
Well, I assume for these states to secede, a fairly extreme faction would have to be in control - it’s not something I’d expect of content Americans who feel kinship and cultural connection to people in New York and California - and as such we could expect fairly extreme results. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/3 "2012-11-19T17:02:42Z")
Despite the impression folks from other nations may get, the US is actually a pretty quiet, safe place to live overall and we enjoy a rather large amount of personal freedom. Compared to most other Western Nations, we are not heavily taxed. This isn’t a bad place at all. So, when you see people starting up the secession crap again, it inevitably means that those people are cranks who have some crank ideas they want to put into practice. Depending on which set of cranks set up the breakaway state, theocracy, apartheid, or Libertopia (Somalia) are all outcomes that would leave me unsurprised. When you have a state founded by cranks specifically to make their beliefs into practice, good outcomes are not to be expected. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/4 "2012-11-19T17:30:13Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Well, I assume for these states to secede, a fairly extreme faction would have to be in control - it’s not something I’d expect of content Americans who feel kinship and cultural connection to people in New York and California - and as such we could expect fairly extreme results. That’s a very good point, which would distort the results of a hypothetical independent nation. For the sake of discussion, say the cause wasn’t seccession by the South, but something that had no direct impact on Southern politics. Just for instance, say that the readmission of the eleven Confederate states (South Carolina, Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, Texas, Virginia, Arkansas, Tennessee, and North Carolina) into the Union was found to be improper, and for some reason (bear with me, it’s a hypothetical) they could not be readmitted, resulting in a seperate nation. I would argue that this nation would be more or less like any other part of the U.S., more socially conservative of course, but recognizably American. Some of the discourse in the thread I linked to above seemed to argue that only the staunch efforts of the Northern and Western states kept the South from making the Baptist Church the official state religion and revoking non-white voting rights, which seemed absurd to me. I was curious if that was a prevailing view or not. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/5 "2012-11-19T17:33:48Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Despite the impression folks from other nations may get, the US is actually a pretty quiet, safe place to live overall and we enjoy a rather large amount of personal freedom. Compared to most other Western Nations, we are not heavily taxed. This isn’t a bad place at all. > So, when you see people starting up the secession crap again, it inevitably means that those people are cranks who have some crank ideas they want to put into practice. Depending on which set of cranks set up the breakaway state, theocracy, apartheid, or Libertopia (Somalia) are all outcomes that would leave me unsurprised. When you have a state founded by cranks specifically to make their beliefs into practice, good outcomes are not to be expected. I agree, and as a nation, I feel we make entirely too much of our differences, when there is so much that nearly every American can agree on: our fundamental, natural rights and the democratic process, for example. So is it your view that an independent South would not substantially differ from the remaining United States, in terms of laws and practices? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/6 "2012-11-19T17:42:51Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > For me, a resident of Kentucky, this seems to border on caricature of the South as unchanged since the days of Bull Connor. I posted this in the other thread. I suspect many of the examples have similar analogues in Kentucky. > [@Why the hostility towards states that want to secede?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/179): > > You keep saying that, but your beliefs about where an unfettered Louisiana would go on social issues is way out of line with the facts. > > Louisiana passed (in 2004) a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage even though gay marriage was already illegal. Consensual homosexual _activity_ is legal in Louisiana _only_ because of Lawrence v. Texas, which struck down such laws as unconstitutional. > > The Louisiana Senate passed [a blanket ban on abortions in 2006](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13154788/ns/politics/t/louisiana-senate-approves-abortion-ban/), and the House nearly passed a similar bill in 2011 (the only reason it didn’t was the loss of Medicaid funding that would result). > > David Duke received 39% of the gubernatorial vote in _1992_. Let me say that again: your state nearly elected a Klansman governor 20 years ago. He had already served in the state House for two years at that point. > > Most of your state is \*still \*under federal desegregation orders. > > Louisiana public schools [are allowed to teach “intelligent design”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_Academic_Freedom_Act#Louisiana_act). > > What on earth can possibly give you the idea that Louisiana is a socially moderate state? I don’t think we’d see a return to the Jim Crow South. I do think there would be a noticeable contraction of civil liberties for racial and religious minorities. Are you familiar with the Murfeesboro mosque controversy? It was just over the border in Tennessee. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/7 "2012-11-19T17:52:40Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > So is it your view that an independent South would not substantially differ from the remaining United States, in terms of laws and practices? No, I think that’s the opposite of what **Scumpup** is saying: > [@Scumpup](#): > > So, when you see people starting up the secession crap again, it inevitably means that those people are cranks who have some crank ideas they want to put into practice. Depending on which set of cranks set up the breakaway state, theocracy, apartheid, or Libertopia (Somalia) are all outcomes that would leave me unsurprised. When you have a state founded by cranks specifically to make their beliefs into practice, good outcomes are not to be expected. If Alien Space Bats showed up and announced that, on pain of everyone being nuked from orbit, the American South must become an independent and sovereign state, then sure, the new country probably wouldn’t be all that different from the U.S.A.–more conservative, natch, since those states are all “red states” or (in the case of Florida, Virginia, and maybe North Carolina) at most “purple”. So, the Alien-Space-Bat-Mandated New Confederate States wouldn’t have gay marriage anywhere, and it might have lower taxes (and less government services) than the remaining United States. But it wouldn’t automatically run out and repeal the Thirteenth Amendment or establish the Southern Baptist Convention as the state church. (The orbital-bombardment-threatening Alien Space Bats would themselves surely have some major effect on human thought and behavior, so assume also that the Alien Space Bats use their flashy things on us all so we don’t even remember what happened and are all under the impression that there have always been two countries where the present United States is.) But, as everybody keeps pointing out to the OP, _there is no actual path to secession that doesn’t involve either Alien Space Bats **or** some kind of takeover by people with seriously “extremist” ideas_. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/8 "2012-11-19T17:54:57Z")
I hesitate to endorse the view that Alien Space Bats are an “actual” path to succession, but otherwise that was well put. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/9 "2012-11-19T17:55:49Z")
Texas State Rep Garnet Coleman has [some words for the Nuevo-Sessionists](http://www.burntorangereport.com/diary/12946/coleman-i-would-like-to-believe-that-texas-is-better-than-what-we-are-seeing). For now, he’s “envisioning” a Texas independent, not tied to the rest of the Confederate Losers… > [@](#): > > Unfortunately, we don’t have to wonder what an independent Texas would look like; we already know. The Republican majority has made it their priority to underfund public and higher education, make it as hard as possible for certain populations to make their voices heard at the polls, and strip away healthcare benefits from needy families. In many cases, the only reason this state’s safety net programs are not more draconian are federal mandates preventing lawmakers from defunding programs even further. To illustrate, when Texan lawmakers say they want more “flexibility” in Medicaid, what they are really saying is that they want the flexibility to push more people off. An independent Texas would allow these lawmakers the freedom to defund education and healthcare as much as they’d like. > > **Their pyrrhic victory, however, would be short-lived. Our state’s demographics are such that the predominantly white Republican political majority will soon give way to a diverse and progressive one. The ultimate irony of their neo-confederate rhetoric is that they would be creating a nation comprised mostly of people of color. This diverse new nation - with an economy roughly equal to that of all the Scandinavian countries combined - would not long tolerate the kind of hateful speech that we are now seeing.** Still, it’s not going to happen. The state can’t secede without the cities–which tend to vote Democratic… ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/10 "2012-11-19T18:20:16Z")
While not a thocracy, I think that there would be a general acceptance of Christianity as the defacto state religion. Prayer in schools would be common. Abortion would be largely outlawed (see Ireland for an example). Basically similar to the way the US was in the 50’s, except for more tolerance of minorities I don’t see any way that segregation would come back, and I think a gays will be tolerated even if they aren’t accepted. Economically I don’t think it will be pretty, particularly since many of the poorest states would be in the Southeastern Conference. Along with the rights desire to increase the wealth gap. Probably ending up with an economy that is halfway between where it is today and Mexico. On the good side the parts of the US that are left will move more to the left, probably attaining political climate similar to that of Canada. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/11 "2012-11-19T18:29:48Z")
> [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > I posted this in the other thread. I suspect many of the examples have similar analogues in Kentucky. Some do; Kentucky didn’t have a consensual sodomy ban or a same-sex oral sex law by the time of the Lawrence vs. Texas decision, though other Southern states did (along with Idaho, Utah, Kansas, Texas, Oklahoma, and Missouri). There are, of course, anti-abortion and pro-intelligent design advocates at various levels of our state government, but actual science is taught in all 176 Kentucky school districts. > [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > I don’t think we’d see a return to the Jim Crow South. I do think there would be a noticeable contraction of civil liberties for racial and religious minorities. That’s where we differ, then. I think that the independent South would be slower than the remaining United States to adopt laws protecting newly-recognized civil liberties, most notable same-sex marriage, but I don’t think there would be an significant erosion of existing liberties either. I see the Southern outlook, at least from what I’ve experienced, as comfort with the status quo and resistance to some changes, not a desire to roll back the existing social order. Abortion would the be primary exception to this, I’ll grant you, but it’s worth noting that at the time of Roe vs. Wade in 1973, every state either banned or heavily restricted abortion. > [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > Are you familiar with the Murfeesboro mosque controversy? It was just over the border in Tennessee. I am (it’s actually Murfreesboro). That particular case, I think, serves my viewpoint. Though a noisly handfull of anti-Muslim protestors (600-800 at the planning commission, and subsequent open-air protest) agitated for the denial of First Amendment rights to the Islamic Center’s members, and they were joined by a few politicians, at every level, from the initial review of the plans to lawsuits filed to block the construction, Tennessee ruled in favor of the Islamic Center, and there were plenty of counter-protestors on hand. I think that’s where we are now in the South, there’s a noisy and embarassing crowd of fundamentalists that are a small minority, but just numerous enough and plenty loud enough to stereotype the whole region in the eyes of outsiders as backwoods throwbacks eager to clap Muslims in irons. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/12 "2012-11-19T19:03:52Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > If Alien Space Bats showed up and announced that, on pain of everyone being nuked from orbit, the American South must become an independent and sovereign state, then sure, the new country probably wouldn’t be all that different from the U.S.A.–more conservative, natch, since those states are all “red states” or (in the case of Florida, Virginia, and maybe North Carolina) at most “purple”. So, the Alien-Space-Bat-Mandated New Confederate States wouldn’t have gay marriage anywhere, and it might have lower taxes (and less government services) than the remaining United States. But it wouldn’t automatically run out and repeal the Thirteenth Amendment or establish the Southern Baptist Convention as the state church. (The orbital-bombardment-threatening Alien Space Bats would themselves surely have some major effect on human thought and behavior, so assume also that the Alien Space Bats use their flashy things on us all so we don’t even remember what happened and are all under the impression that there have always been two countries where the present United States is.) > > But, as everybody keeps pointing out to the OP, there is no actual path to secession that doesn’t involve either Alien Space Bats or some kind of takeover by people with seriously “extremist” ideas. I agree with all your points. Secession is not a political reality, of course, I was just disturbed by the stridently anti-Southern tone I observed in the other thread, and wondered how widespread those ideas were. If the participants I quoted above were viewing the independent South through the prism of the sort of vast social and political change required for an actual secession to occur, then perhaps I was wrong to attribute their remarks to anti-Southern feelings. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/13 "2012-11-19T19:12:29Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I am (it’s actually Murfreesboro). That particular case, I think, serves my viewpoint. Though a noisly handfull of anti-Muslim protestors (600-800 at the planning commission, and subsequent open-air protest) agitated for the denial of First Amendment rights to the Islamic Center’s members, and they were joined by a few politicians, at every level, from the initial review of the plans to lawsuits filed to block the construction, Tennessee ruled in favor of the Islamic Center, and there were plenty of counter-protestors on hand. I think that’s where we are now in the South, there’s a noisy and embarassing crowd of fundamentalists that are a small minority, but just numerous enough and plenty loud enough to stereotype the whole region in the eyes of outsiders as backwoods throwbacks eager to clap Muslims in irons. _Tennessee_ didn’t rule in favor of anything. A state judge ordered construction halted; [a _federal_ judge ordered it to continue](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/19/us/judge-allows-muslims-to-use-murfreesboro-mosque.html?_r=0). Your broader point is taken, though. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/14 "2012-11-19T19:29:19Z")
> [@Buck Godot](#): > > While not a thocracy, I think that there would be a general acceptance of Christianity as the defacto state religion. Prayer in schools would be common. I disagree about a return to teacher-led prayer in public schools. Are there other effects you forsee from this acceptance of Christianity as “the defacto state religion” other than prayer in schools and prohibition of abortion? > [@Buck Godot](#): > > Abortion would be largely outlawed (see Ireland for an example). I agree that this would almost certainly happen, if not a blanket ban, than laws that would make a legal abortion difficult to come by in most circumstances. > [@Buck Godot](#): > > Basically similar to the way the US was in the 50’s, except for more tolerance of minorities I don’t see any way that segregation would come back, and I think a gays will be tolerated even if they aren’t accepted. Can you elaborate on this point? What aspects of the 50’s would you expect to return? > [@Buck Godot](#): > > Economically I don’t think it will be pretty, particularly since many of the poorest states would be in the Southeastern Conference. Agreed, these states, mine included, receive substantially more Federal spending than they pay in taxes, and are poor in any case, which would make for economic woes. My state depends on tobacco and coal, neither of which has a particularly rosy future. > [@Buck Godot](#): > > Along with the rights desire to increase the wealth gap. Can you elaborate on this as well? I’ve never seen a “desire to increase the wealth gap” advocated as an end in itself, though it could well be a side effect of policies that are beneficial to the public. > [@Buck Godot](#): > > Probably ending up with an economy that is halfway between where it is today and Mexico. Ouch! That bad? They’d have a business-friendly enviornment, which has lured a lot of manufacturing to the South, but there are also centers of banking and commerce like Dallas, Charlotte and Atlanta, Texas & Louisiana’s energy wealth, as well as the Research Triangle. And Mexico is (relatively) pretty darn poor, nominal GDP per capita of $10,154, versus $48,386 for the United States. Surely the South would be closer to the US figure than the Mexican one. > [@Buck Godot](#): > > On the good side the parts of the US that are left will move more to the left, probably attaining political climate similar to that of Canada. There’s an aspect I hadn’t thought much about, the effect upon the remaining United States. I’m not sure they’d end up as far left as Canada, though. I’d have to ponder that further, though. ---
**Author:** ![drew870mitchell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drew870mitchell/32/3946_2.png) [@drew870mitchell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drew870mitchell)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/15 "2012-11-19T20:18:02Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I am (it’s actually Murfreesboro). That particular case, I think, serves my viewpoint. Though a noisly handfull of anti-Muslim protestors (600-800 at the planning commission, and subsequent open-air protest) agitated for the denial of First Amendment rights to the Islamic Center’s members, and they were joined by a few politicians, at every level, from the initial review of the plans to lawsuits filed to block the construction, Tennessee ruled in favor of the Islamic Center, and there were plenty of counter-protestors on hand. I think that’s where we are now in the South, there’s a noisy and embarassing crowd of fundamentalists that are a small minority, but just numerous enough and plenty loud enough to stereotype the whole region in the eyes of outsiders as backwoods throwbacks eager to clap Muslims in irons. You’re fooling yourself, or you don’t actually live far enough south, or both. Do you have any idea how big of a deal it is for _six hundred_ protestors to show up at something as mundane as a planning commission meeting? That is far and away the largest “handful” I’ve ever heard of. You’re also wrong about the facts of the case: a local judge tried to block the mosque’s re-opening. It took federal prosecutors filing a case in federal court under a federal statute to reverse that injunction. [http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/11/us/islamic-center-of-murfreesboro-opens-in-tennessee.html?\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/11/us/islamic-center-of-murfreesboro-opens-in-tennessee.html?_r=0) > **[Islamic Center of Murfreesboro | Planning controversy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Center_of_Murfreesboro#Planning_controversy)** > > In April 2010, the ICM sent the Regional Planning Commission of Rutherford County a request for the approval of the construction of a 52,000-square-foot (4,800 m2) complex on the Veals Road lot. Prior to its next meeting, the commission ran an advertisement in The Murfreesboro Post newspaper. The main local newspaper, The Daily News Journal, also published a small news story on the day of the meeting. The commission unanimously approved the ICM's plans at its monthly meeting on May 24, 201 Althou... > **[As Ramadan begins, controversial mosque won’t be ready to open doors | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2012/07/19/justice/tennesee-mosque-lawsuit/index.html)** > > Worshippers at an Islamic center in Tennessee will have to wait a few more weeks before they can use their new mosque, officials said Thursday. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/16 "2012-11-19T20:19:35Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I disagree about a return to teacher-led prayer in public schools. Are there other effects you foresee from this acceptance of Christianity as “the defacto state religion” other than prayer in schools and prohibition of abortion? State sponsored christian displays. Christian prayers before public events. School sponsored Christmas pageants celebrating the birth of Jesus. etc. I don’t think that there will be outward discrimination against non-Christians, just that there would be no effort made to enforce separation of church and state. so in areas where Christians make up a strong majority, the government will reflect it. > [@](#): > > Can you elaborate on this point? What aspects of the 50’s would you expect to return? I was probably too comprehensive in this statement. I was again thinking mostly in terms of religion. Admittedly I wasn’t alive back then, and so most of what I know of that era comes from the media of the time, but it seems that there was generally an acceptance that everyone was christian, with maybe a few Jews sprinkled in to provide variety. Other aspects of the 50’s such as women staying at home I don’t see going back to 50’s lifestyle. > [@](#): > > Can you elaborate on this as well? I’ve never seen a “desire to increase the wealth gap” advocated as an end in itself, though it could well be a side effect of policies that are beneficial to the public. I meant implicitly more than explicitly. > [@](#): > > Ouch! That bad? They’d have a business-friendly environment, which has lured a lot of manufacturing to the South, but there are also centers of banking and commerce like Dallas, Charlotte and Atlanta, Texas & Louisiana’s energy wealth, as well as the Research Triangle. And Mexico is (relatively) pretty darn poor, nominal GDP per capita of $10,154, versus $48,386 for the United States. Surely the South would be closer to the US figure than the Mexican one. Maybe I’m being too harsh, but I think that a ever increasing wealth gap with a limitation of social services will lead to a bifurcation of society generating a quite large truly miserable underclass, along with a very wealthy upper-class that separates itself from the rest of society as much as possible, much like we see in many third world countries today. The next step from gated communities is guarded enclaves. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/17 "2012-11-19T20:39:17Z")
I suspect it’d look to a large extent like a Protestant Evangelical version of Ireland or Chile-not a theocracy but very socially conservative and economically libertarian to boot. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/18 "2012-11-19T20:54:30Z")
> [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > Tennessee didn’t rule in favor of anything. A state judge ordered construction halted; a federal judge ordered it to continue. > [@drew870mitchell](#): > > You’re also wrong about the facts of the case: a local judge tried to block the mosque’s re-opening. It took federal prosecutors filing a case in federal court under a federal statute to reverse that injunction. From what I have read (and have now gone back and refamiliarized myself with the matter), the county Chancellor, who had previously ruled that the county had not “acted illegally, arbitrarily or capriciously” in granting the plan permits, later ruled that the meeting which granted the initial planning permission did not satisfy the vague public-notice requirement under Tennessee law. All other claims were rejected except this one, which appears to have been a legitimate ruling, again from what I have read. A further motion to halt construction was denied, but the permits and such were in question, at which time the matter went to Federal court. Point being, it seems the law was being followed, and the Islamic Center’s member’s rights being respected, even before the Federal intervention. To be fair, recall that Park51, the “Ground Zero Mosque”, faced similar protests and controversy, including legal challenges, in New York City, before also being allowed to proceed. > [@drew870mitchell](#): > > You’re fooling yourself, or you don’t actually live far enough south, or both. Do you have any idea how big of a deal it is for six hundred protestors to show up at something as mundane as a planning commission meeting? That is far and away the largest “handful” I’ve ever heard of. It’s a city of over 100,000, and is very close to Nashville. It doesn’t seem to me to be an especially large protest, considering the area and the politicization of the controversy by Ron Ramsey, the Lt. Governor, and congressional candidate Lou Ann Zelenik, which made the issuer more visible to laypeople. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/19 "2012-11-19T21:04:39Z")
> [@Buck Godot](#): > > State sponsored christian displays. Christian prayers before public events. School sponsored Christmas pageants celebrating the birth of Jesus. etc. I don’t think that there will be outward discrimination against non-Christians, just that there would be no effort made to enforce separation of church and state. so in areas where Christians make up a strong majority, the government will reflect it. I agree, though “no effort” to enforce separation of church and state might be putting in strongly. I don’t attend public functions outside of Kentucky, are prayers before such events not performed in some parts of the country? > [@Buck Godot](#): > > I was probably too comprehensive in this statement. I was again thinking mostly in terms of religion. Admittedly I wasn’t alive back then, and so most of what I know of that era comes from the media of the time, but it seems that there was generally an acceptance that everyone was christian, with maybe a few Jews sprinkled in to provide variety. Other aspects of the 50’s such as women staying at home I don’t see going back to 50’s lifestyle. I agree with your revised statement, though there are significant non-Christian populations in some Southern cities. > [@Buck Godot](#): > > I meant implicitly more than explicitly. I see. I’ll let that matter drop, then. > [@Buck Godot](#): > > Maybe I’m being too harsh, but I think that a ever increasing wealth gap with a limitation of social services will lead to a bifurcation of society generating a quite large truly miserable underclass, along with a very wealthy upper-class that separates itself from the rest of society as much as possible, much like we see in many third world countries today. The next step from gated communities is guarded enclaves. Aren’t those conditions that arise from a lack of a free market, rather than a free one? That is, markets where the government is able to pick “winners and losers”, and stifle competition? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/20 "2012-11-19T21:33:09Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I agree with all your points. Secession is not a political reality, of course, I was just disturbed by the stridently anti-Southern tone I observed in the other thread, and wondered how widespread those ideas were. If the participants I quoted above were viewing the independent South through the prism of the sort of vast social and political change required for an actual secession to occur, then perhaps I was wrong to attribute their remarks to anti-Southern feelings. Well, I’d _love_ to see the Southeast U.S. start pursuing a high-tech Singapore-ish solution with strong emphasis on education, combined with a Danish-style public works effort to build a series of levees and dykes to hold back rising sea levels, with a Canadian-style single-payer health-care system… but what we have to go on are images of people using fire hoses and police dogs on other people for having the temerity to suggest they be allowed to sit at a lunch counter despite having the “wrong” skin color. So basically if the South wants to be viewed positively, they’re going to have to do positive things, and every fight over what gay people can do and what black people can do and what atheist people can do just sets the process back. At this point, I can imagine the two most likely routes taking the South to actual secession: -they regress to what they were in the 1950s (or some crude nostalgic attempt thereat) and open a cultural gap between themselves and the U.S. the secessionists can exploit, or -the U.S. as we know it begins to disintegrate with the south relatively unaffected, which also has the effect of opening said gap to be exploited. Neither is likely in the near future. Barring World War 3 or a comet strike that devastates the world overall, I’d bet on the former if I had to choose. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511.md?page=2)