# An Independent Southern U.S. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2012, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511 "2012-11-19T16:20:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/41 "2012-11-20T13:45:10Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > People forget that many Southerners are also African-Americans. Oh, but they would never have fought for Civil Rights if not for the ideas imported by Yankee Liberals! (Wrong.) There are also many Latino/Hispanic Southerners; beyond the Cuban-American minority, most of them vote Democratic. > > But people automatically assume that a magically formed Independent South would be All White… > > Check out the big map [here](http://imgur.com/pflQf). Where would _you_ draw the borders? How many of those calling for secession, and who actually mean it, are African-American or Latino-American? As I have noted, and as others have noted as well, talk of secession is pretty much exclusively driven by cranks who have extreme beliefs that they would like to see as the law of the land. The people who are content to be part of an evolving, inclusive representative democracy aren’t calling for their state to become an independent nation. Ergo, any secession is going to be driven by cranks with crank goals in mind. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/42 "2012-11-20T13:48:45Z")
> [@Bridget Burke](#): > > People forget that many Southerners are also African-Americans. Oh, but they would never have fought for Civil Rights if not for the ideas imported by Yankee Liberals! (Wrong.) There are also many Latino/Hispanic Southerners; beyond the Cuban-American minority, most of them vote Democratic. I mentioned that in post #30, because I think it’s a barrier to a return of the Old South’s systems of racial discrimination. Once the vote has been granted and the society become pretty well unified, there’s no going back to Jim Crow. > [@Bridget Burke](#): > > But people automatically assume that a magically formed Independent South would be All White… I think that image, an all-white, racist South, fits better into the stereotypes of the South that many still hold dear. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/43 "2012-11-20T14:31:32Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > How many of those calling for secession, and who actually mean it, are African-American or Latino-American? As I have noted, and as others have noted as well, talk of secession is pretty much exclusively driven by cranks who have extreme beliefs that they would like to see as the law of the land. The people who are content to be part of an evolving, inclusive representative democracy aren’t calling for their state to become an independent nation. Ergo, any secession is going to be driven by cranks with crank goals in mind. None of them. But some folks on this thread seem to think that removing the South from All Blue America would be a good thing… ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/44 "2012-11-20T15:33:18Z")
You folks who would live in the hypothetical New Confederacy, where do you think your nation’s laws would stand on prayer in school? Local decision? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/45 "2012-11-20T15:38:38Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Isn’t this just part of politics? It’s easy to believe negative things about someone you disagree with, because they justify your dislike. There’s a word for people who believe ignorant things because of politics. That word is “ignorant”. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/46 "2012-11-20T15:51:08Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > There’s a word for people who believe ignorant things because of politics. That word is “ignorant”. Agreed, but the South holds no patent on such ignorance. > [@Red Wiggler](#): > > You folks who would live in the hypothetical New Confederacy, where do you think your nation’s laws would stand on prayer in school? Local decision? I don’t think anyone here desires a New Confederacy, but as to your question, I do not think we’d see a return to teacher-led prayer in schools. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/47 "2012-11-20T16:09:06Z")
The question posed in this thread is a hypothetical one. Of course the odds against it happening are astronomical. But that doesn’t disqualify it from becoming a fun discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/48 "2012-11-20T16:10:28Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Most of my relatives live in either Texas or Arkansas. They give me every reason to believe that we would, as a culture, be better off genociding everybody south of the Mason-Dixon line and starting over. This is vile and not appropriate for this forum. If you must rhetorically call for mass murder, try your luck in the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/49 "2012-11-20T16:10:50Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I mentioned that in post #30, because I think it’s a barrier to a return of the Old South’s systems of racial discrimination. Once the vote has been granted and the society become pretty well unified, there’s no going back Well after the Civil War blacks could vote. The white majority just chipped it away bit by bit through laws and intimidation. We already see the same pattern with gerrymandering and changes to voting laws designed to suppress the black vote. The Federal Govt is what stopped Jim Crow and prevented it from returning. Once that yoke is taken off the “states’ rights” crowd will be back. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/50 "2012-11-20T16:24:34Z")
> [@Red Wiggler](#): > > You folks who would live in the hypothetical New Confederacy, where do you think your nation’s laws would stand on prayer in school? Local decision? > [@Human Action](#): > > I don’t think anyone here desires a New Confederacy…[ > [@Red Wiggler](#): > > The question posed in this thread is a hypothetical one. Of course the odds against it happening are astronomical. But that doesn’t disqualify it from becoming a fun discussion. I think I misinterpreted you here, by “those who would live”, I took you to mean “desire to live”. Did you mean “would live there by reason of being there already?” A fun discussion is what I was hoping for, and so far, so good. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/51 "2012-11-20T16:36:51Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > And of course those images are very powerful. But it has been 49 years since the fire hoses and dogs were unleashed on peaceful demonstrators in Birmingham. And it’s been barely three years since [a Louisiana justice of the peace refused to issue a marriage license to an interracial couple.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/15/interracial-couple-denied_n_322784.html) > [@](#): > > So, if I’m understanding you, compared to the rest of the country, the South faces a unique image problem stemming from it’s ugly racial past. No, racism is an element that can be found in pretty much all parts of the U.S., it’s just that the South hung onto it the longest and most stubbornly. > [@](#): > > Therefore, to be viewed in a more positive light, the South needs to actively fight for the freedoms of gays, and other minorities? Well, it would help if they stopped trying to put up barriers. > [@](#): > > And a path of resistance to social change, be it rooted in bigotry or just traditionalism, reflects worse upon the South than it would, say, Wyoming, even if Wyoming pursues the same policies? “Just traditionalism” is a handy excuse, wot? Anyway, I’m not sure if you’re trying to root out a double standard or something, but you started this thread to talk about the Southern U.S. I’m sure plenty of nonSouthern states have been dickish about minority rights (Utah comes to mind) and I’m happy to recognize dickishness when it is brought to my attention. So what did Wyoming do that as bad as a typical southern state, and if Wyoming seceded, would we expect to see more of the same from them? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/52 "2012-11-20T16:40:54Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > Well after the Civil War blacks could vote. The white majority just chipped it away bit by bit through laws and intimidation. That is true, but that was a unique historical moment. Millions of freed slaves were effectively abandoned by their federal government after the Union army’s withdrawal in 1877. These slaves had no opportunity to form a political base, and the fear of the ex-slaves (and the competition they represented) unified the white vote sufficiently, when coupled with extralegal use of force, to allow for effective disfranchisement of racial minorities. That moment has come and gone. > [@fumster](#): > > We already see the same pattern with gerrymandering and changes to voting laws designed to suppress the black vote. They are designed to suppress the Democratic vote, if anything. Gerrymandering is a political tool, which can target anyone. Republican gerrymandering in New York in 1864 cost anti-abolitionist Democrat [S.S. Cox](http://elections.harpweek.com/1864/bio-1864-Full.asp?UniqueID=7&Year=1864) reelection, for instance. The tendency of African-Americans to vote Democratic is the key, not their race per se. I can assure you that a “Black Folks Can No Longer Vote” bill would not pass the Kentucky General Assembly. > [@fumster](#): > > The Federal Govt is what stopped Jim Crow and prevented it from returning. Once that yoke is taken off the “states’ rights” crowd will be back. We are not those men. This is not that time. Is it your view that there is something so wicked and irredeemable in the hearts of Southern whites that they yearn for a chance to oppress their African-American neighbors? ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/53 "2012-11-20T17:00:01Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Is it your view that there is something so wicked and irredeemable in the hearts of Southern whites that they yearn for a chance to oppress their African-American neighbors? I didn’t til last year. Then you guys pretty much won me over. The utter disregard of facts, the dog whistling, the belief in things so utterly removed from reality that they would be rejected by The Onion as going too far. Not all of you, just a majority. But that’s all it takes, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Tarwater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de0a6/32.png) [@Tarwater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tarwater)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/54 "2012-11-20T17:08:27Z")
Keep in mind that most people who have a moderating influence on Southern society will flee the very minute their state chooses to secede. They aren’t going to stick around to see their erstwhile state turned into an economically crippled fiefdom. What you’re left with, then, are the hardcore secessionists, all of whom are ugly, vindictive, and overwhelmingly conservative. And the people too poor to afford to leave, of course. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/55 "2012-11-20T17:22:09Z")
OK, so I’ll be more thoughtful for a second. Here is what the Southern Republic would look like: [Minimum wage](http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/america.htm#.UKu4tuSw9m0) laws would be repealed or would be lowered. Labor rights would be non-existent. OSHA-style regulations would not be in place. Taxes on business would drop, drawing companies to the south for cheap, non-union labor and lower regulatory burden. The rest of the United States would retaliate by imposing tarrifs to make up for the difference in labor cost. Abortion clinics would spring up on the borders. The south would retaliate by arresting returning women for murder. Gays especially, and the creative class in general, would leave in increasing numbers. Without base of support for gay rights, states would re-impose sodomy laws creating a vicious cycle. The states would allow vouchers to be used in religious schools leading to eroding support for public education. De facto segregation of schools would increase. Some small towns would defy even the limited protections for civil rights and the Governor would not be willing to have the state militia enforce the laws. Gun stores would flourish on the border to take advantage of the loose/non-existent laws. Roadblocks on the US side would be set up to intercept guns and travel times would be increased. New gangs would take advantage of the fact that pot is legal in the north and guns are unrestricted in the south. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/56 "2012-11-20T17:27:34Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > And it’s been barely three years since a Louisiana justice of the peace refused to issue a marriage license to an interracial couple. Quick clarification: per [CNN](http://edition.cnn.com/2009/US/11/03/louisiana.interracial.marriage/), the issuing of the license was completed without incident; the refusal pertained to Mr. Bardwell’s signing the license. > [@CNN story](#): > > Initial reports were that Bardwell refused to issue a marriage license to the couple, but in the lawsuit Humphrey and McKay say they obtained the license from the parish court clerk’s office and contacted Bardwell to see if he would perform the ceremony and sign the license to legally validate the marriage. This speaks to my point. An elderly gentleman who serves as justice of the peace refuses to sign a marriage license for an interracial couple. The public, as well as Senator Mary Landrieu and Governor Bobby Jindal, reacted with outrage. Mr. Bardwell resigned, and a special election was held to fill the position. And this is evidence that the modern South is so corrupted with racism that Jim Crow would return without the Federal government’s oversight? > [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > So basically if the South wants to be viewed positively, they’re going to have to do positive things, and every fight over what gay people can do and what black people can do and what atheist people can do just sets the process back. I had taken this to mean that the South was starting with an especially negative image. If that’s not what you meant, then I apologize for misinterpreting you. > [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > No, racism is an element that can be found in pretty much all parts of the U.S., it’s just that the South hung onto it the longest and most stubbornly. I agree, though the scope of the remaining problem seems to be in dispute. > [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > “Just traditionalism” is a handy excuse, wot? Anyway, I’m not sure if you’re trying to root out a double standard or something, but you started this thread to talk about the Southern U.S. I’m sure plenty of nonSouthern states have been dickish about minority rights (Utah comes to mind) and I’m happy to recognize dickishness when it is brought to my attention. So what did Wyoming do that as bad as a typical southern state, and if Wyoming seceded, would we expect to see more of the same from them? Yes, a double standard is what I was referring to. I feel that the South faces a disproportionate amount of criticism on social issues, even when it’s policies are shared by many other states. If you look at a list of states that prohibit same-sex marriage via amendment, you’ll see Colorado, Arizona, South Dakota, California (Prop 8, under appeal), Oregon, Nevada, Hawaii…a broad cross-section of the United States. Marriage equality is an American problem. Now, by living in the South, it may be that I just don’t hear criticism on Hawaii on this issue, not that the criticism doesn’t occur. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/57 "2012-11-20T17:39:20Z")
Well, what do you want from us - an admission that a post-secession South would be a bastion of progressive thought where individual freedoms would grow? That region has never had a history of such, so why would we expect a future of such? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/58 "2012-11-20T17:45:29Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > I didn’t til last year. Then you guys pretty much won me over. The utter disregard of facts, the dog whistling, the belief in things so utterly removed from reality that they would be rejected by The Onion as going too far. > > Not all of you, just a majority. But that’s all it takes, isn’t it? I see. This is so personal and subjective it’s hard to debate about, so I’ll move to your next post: > [@fumster](#): > > Minimum wage laws would be repealed or would be lowered. Quite possibly. The origin of those laws was to “protect” white labor from competition from cheaper African-American labor, so this would actually be a blow for racial equality. > [@fumster](#): > > Labor rights would be non-existent. Do you mean that right-to-work laws would be the rule, or something deeper? > [@fumster](#): > > OSHA-style regulations would not be in place. Possible. Certainly enviornmental impact study requirements, extensive permits and licenses, and the like would be eased. > [@fumster](#): > > Taxes on business would drop, drawing companies to the south for cheap, non-union labor and lower regulatory burden. Agreed, that’s happening as we speak. > [@fumster](#): > > The rest of the United States would retaliate by imposing tarrifs to make up for the difference in labor cost. I hope not. I’d really like us to move past protectionism as a nation (or two nations, in this hypthetical). Both nations would benefit from free trade. > [@fumster](#): > > Abortion clinics would spring up on the borders. Agreed. > [@fumster](#): > > The south would retaliate by arresting returning women for murder. Possibly, though the fervor of enforcment would vary wildly from place to place. > [@fumster](#): > > Gays especially, and the creative class in general, would leave in increasing numbers. Without base of support for gay rights, states would re-impose sodomy laws creating a vicious cycle. So you believe this flight would precede any actual erosion of liberties, not be a consequence of it? > [@fumster](#): > > The states would allow vouchers to be used in religious schools leading to eroding support for public education. De facto segregation of schools would increase. Introducing competitive pressures for schools may well increase the quality of educations received, helping the South’s poverty issues. Wouldn’t waivers offset the de fact segregation by allowing even the poor to choose private schools? > [@fumster](#): > > Some small towns would defy even the limited protections for civil rights and the Governor would not be willing to have the state militia enforce the laws. This would depend heavily on the sort of central government the Southern nation ended up with. > [@fumster](#): > > Gun stores would flourish on the border to take advantage of the loose/non-existent laws. Roadblocks on the US side would be set up to intercept guns and travel times would be increased. New gangs would take advantage of the fact that pot is legal in the north and guns are unrestricted in the south. A bit of a tangent, but do you think firearms ownership in the remaining U.S. would be further restricted in the wake of the Southern states’ departure from the union? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/59 "2012-11-20T17:52:42Z")
> [@Tarwater](#): > > Keep in mind that most people who have a moderating influence on Southern society will flee the very minute their state chooses to secede. They aren’t going to stick around to see their erstwhile state turned into an economically crippled fiefdom. What you’re left with, then, are the hardcore secessionists, all of whom are ugly, vindictive, and overwhelmingly conservative. > > And the people too poor to afford to leave, of course. You’re absolutely right, which makes the hypothetical nature of the discussion tricky. You can either include concerns like these, or not. > [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Well, what do you want from us - an admission that a post-secession South would be a bastion of progressive thought where individual freedoms would grow? That region has never had a history of such, so why would we expect a future of such? I just wanted to know what others thought on the matter, but I was happy to see more votes for “not that bad” than for “theocratic nightmare.” Asking what a purely Southern government would be like is a sort of referrendum on the Southerners as a people; I’m pleasantly surprised at the lack of demonization in this thread. The BabaBooey thread got hostile quickly, though that probably had a lot to do with the OP’s demeanor. Everyone here was perfectly reasonable and polite. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511/60 "2012-11-20T19:52:39Z")
How y’all gonna convince the half of Mississippi that’s black to secede? Or the third of South Carolina and Louisiana? Or the quarter of Alabama, Georgia, North Carolina and Virginia? You can’t. So, game over. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-independent-southern-u-s/641511.md?page=4)