I liked it better the other way. 
You know, I am willing to give GWB a pass on this one. The day was so emotional, so difficult for all of us, I wonder how many of us could really say what they did that day. My memory is sufficiently screwed up that I am not surprised when people get confused.
Have you read of those studies where eyewitnesses can remember what they saw? Sort of like that.
Sorry Des.
You mean about all the different accounts of what the president knew when, and what he did?
First, I know exactly what I did that day. Everything is very clear, and I didn’t even have a visit from a president.
Second, I hold the president, the president’s handlers, and the press (not to mention the nation’s teachers) to a much higher standard than your average eyewitness. When there are so many people around, and so many cameras, you’d think there could be some sort of consensus about what happened. It’s not so hard. When did the president hear about the first plane and who told him? What did he do after hearing about the 2nd plane? There shouldn’t be so much confusion about it. If cameras weren’t rolling, we’d still all be accepting the White House’s version of events wrt the 2nd plane information. The confusion is disturbing though. True, not nearly as disturbing as any number of other things regarding this administration, but still…
History will want to know these things.
[hijack]
If your favorite humor website isn’t doing it for you today, I recommend visiting Libertarian candidate Badnarik’s website. For “hearty chuckles,” peruse the economy and unemployment issue statement (“Let’s invent a causation to explain a weak correlation, and ignore the decade during which the correlation doesn’t even exist”). For “funny, but a little scary,” try the health care statements (which I’d summarize as the “We need more thalidomide” plank). For “spine-chilling,” try gun control (that’s the “Let’s turn rush hour into a running gun battle” plank).
It had me chanting, “Four more years! Four more years!”
[/hijack]
I’m not going to that website, I don’t even want that stuff in my cache. Thank you anyway though.
I will say that thalidomide research is, from what I know, a good thing. It’s been shown to be quite helpful in treating some of the most terrible symptoms of Hansen’s Disease (leprosy) and could be beneficial to people suffering from AIDS, Behchet disease, lupus, Sjogren syndrome, rheumatoid arthritis, inflammatory bowel disease, macular degeneration, and some cancers (according to several web sites). Of course, there should be no risk of pregnancy while taking it (may there never be another thalidomide baby), but I applaud the ongoing research. A beneficial drug should not be banned simply because pregnant women shouldn’t take it.
Yes, I chose my example a bit carelessly. What the Libertarians seem to want is an end to all that messy regulation of drugs. Who needs the FDA, anyhow? Maybe the “We need more snake oil” plank?
You’re just no fun at all. I’m going to sign you up for their newsletter. 
Since Moore doesn’t claim in Fahrenheit 9/11 that Bush was in the classroom for nearly a half-hour, you’re just talking out of your ass. :smack: Again.
But then, if you actually had enough of a spine to see the movie before judging it, you’d know that. :wally
As you know, I saw the specific clip which, as you know, Moore brought to Jon Stewart’s show. And as you know, the clip said seven minutes. The reason I know that you know these things is because you were there in the thread where they were discussed. Why you would feign ignorance, particularly at this message board, is anyone’s guess.
No, you chose the right one. It is a proper example of the fact that you don’t know what you’re talking about. Here are exerpts from the LP platform:
You deserve four more years.
What can I say? Pointing out all your evasive backpedals and gross ignorance takes more time than I have in the day, so I sometimes get confused as to which bullshit remark of yours needs correcting.
Forgive me for butting into this lovefest, but one thing seriously lacking in this discussion is the 9/11 Commission’s Staff Report #17 (the stuff on Presidents Bush and Cheney begins on page 20). I suspect it’s as close as we’ll ever get to an objective account of various official actions that day. It is must reading.
Okay, my turn at the flame thrower.
The only thing that really bothers me here is Bush’s “seven-minute gap.” Now, it was quite in character for him to sit around gnawing at his lower lip, waiting for someone to tell him what to do. Alas, my ideal of a Comander-in-Chief would, on hearing the magic phrase “America is under attack” stand up, make a hasty apology, exit stage right, and ask the first aide he sees, “What the hell is going on?” That’s how it should work. Reality is, as usual, another matter.
Considering the commission won’t address the question of whether or not the CIA was pressured by the White House into delivering slanted data until after the November election, I’d hold off on that assumption.
Thanks for posting that link – very interesting reading. But you left out this part, which also makes me wonder about Bush’s priorities:
Bolding mine.
That’s over 20 minutes when the Commander in Chief was sitting around “projecting an image of calm” and then consulting his PR people to see if he said the right thing. Confusion and fog of war are one thing. Indecisiveness and image polishing in the middle of crisis is inexcusable for a national leader.
EZ
I was talking about Badnarik’s position on drug regulation, and about the fact that citing thalidomide as the type of drug that we count on the FDA to keep off the market was misguided, since thalidomide actually has shown some promise in treating various conditions (and I gather that research is continuing in those areas).
You respond with a bunch of quotes from the Libertarian Party that have nothing whatsoever to do with the Badnarik position I was referring to. What in the fuck are you talking about? Do you even know anymore, or do you just pull things out of your ass?
I encourage others to go visit the Badnarik website, and see for themselves whether his positions are worthy of support. Some of them are, IMO, whereas I think others are simply hilarious in their naivete (the one on the economy and unemployment is especially loopy).
Two things that make Bush’s actions on that day unforgiveable:
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It was known before he entered the classroom that numerous aircraft had been hijacked that morning. The confluence of that situation with a “terrible accident” should have shouted to anyone with half a brain that something was seriously wrong. If not then, then certainly after the second hit. Supposedly, only one person could give the shoot down order, and that person was chillin’ with the kiddies. If no one connected the dots, then why the hell not. Why has there not been a single firing that I know of due to the pathetic national defense response on that day.
-
While he was reading about a pet goat, some passengers were planning to overtake a certain aircraft flying over PA, and others, including Bush’s own SG’s wife, were making calls from an airplane that was about to plow into the Pentagon. Decisive action from Bush could have potentially averted either or both of these disasters. Perhaps the passengers could not be saved, but the Pentagon and its occupants sure as hell could have.
Here is what the “interesting day” site has to say about it:
Is it truly possible, as in ElectricZ’s quote, that no one was in contact with the Pentagon after it became clear that we were under terrorist attack. Is that even remotely defensible if true? Was he truly working on his “remarks”, instead of doing something! Honestly, can any Bush apologist come up with any sort of explanation for this?
Moore went easy on Bush. He doesn’t focus on how long Bush was in the classroom, but only on how long Bush sat in the chair after hearing the news of the 2nd crash (and the little matter of “The nation is under attack”). Moore could have mentioned that Bush stayed there a lot longer after the reading was over, but he didn’t.
Moore was way too easy on Bush throughout the whole movie.
I’ll take your word for it. Meanwhile, Al Gore has blatantly exposed Bush for the tyrant that he is. No borrowed directoral techniques. No coy, leading, and unanswered questions. No piddly shit minutiae analyzed into irrelevance.
Been gone for awhile. How have you all been? I missed you.
That said… It seems like someone has changed their screen name. Not that there is anything wrong with that. If it is true that you used to go by another name I do not wish to insult you, I am sure you adhered to the formalities of changing names. I am also sure this issue has been discussed so I will let it drop without castigating you for disengenuously proclaiming yourself to be that which you are not.(If you are who I think you are, you are “liberal” in the sense Rhenquist is Liberal).
Moore is indeed a bore. He pulled punches, but that was necesary to avoid alienating those with soft heads… 
See the smiley? It is sincere. (Meaning I have no wish to start a pissing contest… just saying hello in my dumb ass way)
I get the impression Moore missed a good bet. What he should’ve done is a split screen with Bush watching the kids read on one side and on the other the live feed from CNN, ABC, NBC, or CBS showing what everybody else in the fucking country was watching. No, I don’t ask for SuperPres and hope for more than him running around like a beheaded chicken but an effort to get a handle on what was going on without waiting for his advisors to spoonfeed him would have raised my respect for him.
Maybe Moore had seen this Flash movie and figured “it’s been done.” I don’t know, but I do agree with you on both counts.
(that site has a LOT of great Flash movies. Some that made me cry and some that made me gnash my teeth)
Liberal, your issue is THE most important thing Bush will be remembered for. Well, that and the war. Don’t think that people discussing this matter will overshadow that, even if this thread is bigger. I don’t even know what to say in that other thread, because it’s Just. So. Huge. My mind can comprehend small shit much better. It’s not nearly as scary.
Oh, and, Moore does a lot more than focus on the small shit.
Thank you, ElectricZ. I’d either forgotten this passage from 9/11 Commission Staff Report #17, or it didn’t register when I first read the report.
So permit me to revise and extend my remarks: the world is going to hell in a handbasket, and Bush and his aides spend fifteen minutes trying to cobble up a statement for the press. Unconscionable. Utterly unconscionable.
Now there is some use for a little PR in this nutty little world of ours, but apparently these guys know nothing else. America is under attack, and they’re trying to figure out how to spin it.
I wasn’t going to say this, it being too snarky for such a serious topic, but I’m no longer sure the observation is “out of order.” I find it interesting that, while Dick Cheney was treated to a “feet-never-touch-the ground” ride to the nearest bunker, the agents with the president were in no great hurry to whisk him to safety (at that moment, Air Force One). Sounds like the Secret Service knows who is really running this administration!