# An interesting unit of measurment - the denier **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** golf\ **Created:** [November 7, 2025, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-interesting-unit-of-measurment-the-denier/1024674 "2025-11-07T19:54:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![mixdenny](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mixdenny/32/2962_2.png) [@mixdenny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mixdenny)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2025, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-interesting-unit-of-measurment-the-denier/1024674/1 "2025-11-07T19:54:01Z")
I bought something made of 600D cloth and searched to see exactly what that meant. It is the abbreviation for 600 denier fabric, a rather tough outdoor rated cloth. A denier unit means each strand of yarn weighs 1 gram per 9000 meters. So 600 grams per 9000 meters. I find this a delightfully arbitrary measurement, showing that the metric system can have strange units as well as the English system. Probably traceable back to some seamtress’ basket of yan or something. “No, no - not 10,000 meters - 9000!” Reminds me of Robin William’s bit about the invention of golf. “So, the ball goes in the hole and that’s the game?” “Oh no! We do it 18 fooking times!” ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2025, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-interesting-unit-of-measurment-the-denier/1024674/2 "2025-11-07T20:04:20Z")
> [@mixdenny](#): > > I find this a delightfully arbitrary measurement, showing that the metric system can have strange units as well as the English system. Probably traceable back to some seamtress’ basket of yan or something. “No, no - not 10,000 meters - 9000!” There’s kind of a reason behind that 9,000 (though why it wasn’t 9,023 or 8,971 or something, I cannot say). > **[The denier](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Units_of_textile_measurement#Denier)** is based on a natural reference: a single strand of silk is approximately one denier; a 9,000-metre strand of silk weighs about one gram. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2025, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-interesting-unit-of-measurment-the-denier/1024674/3 "2025-11-08T00:40:24Z")
I had heard of it before. In the late 40s, my mother started a small business selling newly available nylon stockings and denier was the measure of how many threads per [something]. I did not know it was a metric unit, nor did my mother. I used to deliver the stockings for her. I was about 10 when she started. It was pronounced as a French word, roughly deniay. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2025, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-interesting-unit-of-measurment-the-denier/1024674/4 "2025-11-08T00:49:18Z")
I’ve heard of the denier but didn’t know its derivation. In fact, I _deny_ that I have ever heard the derivation. You might say that I’m a … no, I can’t do it. I’m more gobsmacked by the fact that 9 kilometers (5.5 miles) of silk weighs less than a quarter teaspoon of water. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2025, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-interesting-unit-of-measurment-the-denier/1024674/5 "2025-11-08T02:16:59Z")
I used to read old fabric arts books. Victorian or earlier. So I’ve read the word. Knew it had something to do with tiny fibers in the fabric. How interesting you noticed it, @mixdenny , you see the world uniquely. (Complimentary) 😊 ---
**Author:** ![mixdenny](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mixdenny/32/2962_2.png) [@mixdenny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mixdenny)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2025, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-interesting-unit-of-measurment-the-denier/1024674/6 "2025-11-08T05:07:22Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > There’s kind of a reason behind that 9,000 (though why it wasn’t 9,023 or 8,971 or something, I cannot say). I assume this is an old unit of measurement. How would they even measure the length back then without a mechanical device to wind up and measure thread? Granny sits there at her spinning wheel and repeatedly pulls out a double arm length of yarn and folds it into her basket? “1800 millimeters, 3600 millimeters, 5400…” ---
**Author:** ![mixdenny](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mixdenny/32/2962_2.png) [@mixdenny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mixdenny)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2025, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-interesting-unit-of-measurment-the-denier/1024674/7 "2025-11-08T05:12:31Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > How interesting you noticed it, @mixdenny , you see the world uniquely. (Complimentary) 😊 A bit of a story. I just bought a new enclosure for my home golf cart. The old one was kind of crappy. This new one is really nice. The fabric is beautiful and really tough. One of my race cars had a ballistic nylon fuel tank and this fabric reminds me of that. Bulletproof. Or at least golf ball proof. > **[Pardon Our Interruption...](https://www.ebay.com/itm/115831474972)** ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2025, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-interesting-unit-of-measurment-the-denier/1024674/8 "2025-11-08T07:20:21Z")
A denier was also once a unit of currency: > **[French denier](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_denier)** > > The denier (/dəˈnɪər/; Latin: denarius, Italian: denaro, Greek: δηνάριο, romanized: dinario; abbr. d.) or penny was a medieval coin which takes its name from the Frankish coin first issued in the late seventh century; in English it is sometimes referred to as a silver penny. Its appearance represents the end of gold coinage, which, at the start of Frankish rule, had either been Roman (Byzantine) or "pseudo-imperial" (minted by the Franks in imitation of Byzantine coinage). Silver would be the Ar... ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2025, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-interesting-unit-of-measurment-the-denier/1024674/9 "2025-11-08T08:57:43Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > I did not know it was a metric unit, nor did my mother. It seems plainly not that much of a “metric” unit even compared to units of similar magnitude such as the decitex. It is more metric than older units like drams per 1000 yards, in fact entirely metric in that it is defined in terms of units of standardized magnitude: grams and meters, and was adopted at at least one international congress at one point. I suspect that this is an “old unit of measurement”— the table [here](https://www.sizes.com/units/yarn_numbers.htm) has a conversion table comparing pre-metric deniers like the Turin denier, Milan denier, etc. > [@PatrickLondon](#): > > A denier was also once a unit of currency: Not that long ago that British money was l/s/d… ---
**Author:** ![PlaceboTarget](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/placebotarget/32/1073_2.png) [@PlaceboTarget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlaceboTarget)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2025, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-interesting-unit-of-measurment-the-denier/1024674/10 "2025-11-08T10:49:51Z")
> [@mixdenny](#): > > I find this a delightfully arbitrary measurement, showing that the metric system can have strange units as well as the English system. Probably traceable back to some seamtress’ basket of yan or something. “No, no - not 10,000 meters - 9000!” The metric system uses the decitex (dtex), where 1 dtex = 1 gram per 10,000 meters. The denier is more common in U.S. textile labeling. ---
**Author:** ![Gordon\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3da27b/32.png) [@Gordon\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gordon_G)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2025, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-interesting-unit-of-measurment-the-denier/1024674/11 "2025-11-08T11:26:35Z")
As PatrickLondon wrote, a _denier_ was an ancient measure of weight and of money. A silver penny (denier) originally weighed 1 pennyweight (24 grains of barley, now standardized as 1.555 grams). Density = weight per standard distance so denier became a measure of yarn’s density, but both the unit of weight and the standard distance mutated over the centuries to the present-day gram per 9000 meters. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2025, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-interesting-unit-of-measurment-the-denier/1024674/12 "2025-11-08T13:13:14Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Not that long ago that British money was l/s/d… Indeed. I sometimes wonder if it’s worth pointing out to patriotic anti-decimal nostalgics (if there are any) that l.s.d. was a Roman/Carolingian invention from that there filthy Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2025, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-interesting-unit-of-measurment-the-denier/1024674/13 "2025-11-08T13:41:56Z")
> [@mixdenny](#): > > I assume this is an old unit of measurement. How would they even measure the length back then without a mechanical device to wind up and measure thread? Granny sits there at her spinning wheel and repeatedly pulls out a double arm length of yarn and folds it into her basket? “1800 millimeters, 3600 millimeters, 5400…” You assume wrong, depending on what you meant by “old”. AFAICT, the denier as a unit of textile fineness dates back to the early industrial period, when plenty of mechanical fiber handling and measurement devices existed. ETA: Here you go: [the clock reel, AKA spinner’s weasel](https://www.motherbedford.com/Museum355.htm), of “pop going” fame. ---
**Author:** ![mixdenny](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mixdenny/32/2962_2.png) [@mixdenny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mixdenny)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2025, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-interesting-unit-of-measurment-the-denier/1024674/14 "2025-11-08T17:25:55Z")
Yeah, that will do it! This mechanism is the same as shaft speed indicators. You press the instrument against the end of a shaft and it counts revolutions while you time it to get RPM. I have a decent collection of different models: [![Imgur](https://i.imgur.com/spyRAAU.jpeg "imgur.com") ](https://imgur.com/spyRAAU) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-interesting-unit-of-measurment-the-denier/1024674/15 "2025-11-11T21:42:26Z")
Cool! Tools is cool.