# An Islamic Reformation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 26, 2008, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-islamic-reformation/439234 "2008-02-26T16:56:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2008, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-islamic-reformation/439234/1 "2008-02-26T16:56:08Z")
Okay - I’m not exactly Islam’s greatest fan but in the interest of fairness I want to share this and ask: Is this Islam’s Reformation beginning (or maybe Reclamation)? [Turkey in radical revision of Islamic texts](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7264903.stm) > [@](#): > > The country’s powerful Department of Religious Affairs has commissioned a team of theologians at Ankara University to carry out a fundamental revision of the Hadith, the second most sacred text in Islam after the Koran. > > The Hadith is a collection of thousands of sayings reputed to come from the Prophet Muhammad. > > As such, it is the principal guide for Muslims in interpreting the Koran and the source of the vast majority of Islamic law, or Sharia. > > \ > > Commentators say the very theology of Islam is being reinterpreted in order to effect a radical renewal of the religion. > > Its supporters say the spirit of logic and reason inherent in Islam at its foundation 1,400 years ago are being rediscovered. Some believe it could represent the beginning of a reformation in the religion. > > \ > > An adviser to the project, Felix Koerner, says some of the sayings - also known individually as “hadiths” - can be shown to have been invented hundreds of years after the Prophet Muhammad died, to serve the purposes of contemporary society. > > “Unfortunately you can even justify through alleged hadiths, the Muslim - or pseudo-Muslim - practice of female genital mutilation,” he says. > > “You can find messages which say ‘that is what the Prophet ordered us to do’. But you can show historically how they came into being, as influences from other cultures, that were then projected onto Islamic tradition.” > > Significantly, the “Ankara School” of theologians working on the new Hadith have been using Western critical techniques and philosophy. > > They have also taken an even bolder step - rejecting a long-established rule of Muslim scholars that later (and often more conservative) texts override earlier ones. > > “You have to see them as a whole,” says Fadi Hakura. > > "You can’t say, for example, that the verses of violence override the verses of peace. This is used a lot in the Middle East, this kind of ideology. > > “I cannot impress enough how fundamental [this change] is.” For me, religions are what religions do and if Islam uncouples itself from all the barbaric baggage and becomes something able to meet the modern world more than half way like much of Christianity has then more power to it. I wonder how this will fly in the rest of the Islam world? ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2008, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-islamic-reformation/439234/2 "2008-02-26T16:59:25Z")
Probably like a lead balloon, among those who use the current version for their own ends. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2008, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-islamic-reformation/439234/3 "2008-02-26T17:14:27Z")
[QUOTE=EddyTeddyFreddy] Probably like a lead balloon, among those who use the current version for their own ends. [/QUOTE] [The Lead Balloon](http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2444197#post2444197) Quotes from posts > [@](#): > > ‘the protocols of the elders of Ankara’ > > 'Just what makes these people think they are qualified to decide just what Prophet Muhammad said or didn’t say? None of them are qualified in the field of Hadith to even attempt such a thing. > > What a joke. They just want to change the religion to suit their own desires. > Yet they call themselves muslims. Its a disgrace, them and what they are doing.’ ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2008, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-islamic-reformation/439234/4 "2008-02-26T17:15:04Z")
Turkey is very culturally different from the Arab world. In order for there to be a “reformation,” the culture needs to be open to different interpretations of the religion. So no, I don’t think this is going to spread to other Muslim countries - I think the Turks involved in this revision will simply be stigmatized as heretics. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2008, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-islamic-reformation/439234/5 "2008-02-26T17:18:08Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] Turkey is very culturally different from the Arab world. In order for there to be a “reformation,” the culture needs to be open to different interpretations of the religion. So no, I don’t think this is going to spread to other Muslim countries - I think the Turks involved in this revision will simply be stigmatized as heretics. [/QUOTE] Ah well. At least I can add some dead cert but obscure names to the office Dead Pool. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2008, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-islamic-reformation/439234/6 "2008-02-26T17:19:25Z")
Remember that the Protestant Reformation led to nearly 200 years of some of the bloodiest wars Europe ever saw. I’m all for reforming Isalm, but I’m not sure I want to live through it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2008, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-islamic-reformation/439234/7 "2008-02-26T17:30:16Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] Turkey is very culturally different from the Arab world. In order for there to be a “reformation,” the culture needs to be open to different interpretations of the religion. So no, I don’t think this is going to spread to other Muslim countries - I think the Turks involved in this revision will simply be stigmatized as heretics. [/QUOTE] Keep in mind that most Muslims are not Arab, although your point about this not being accepted in the Arab world is well taken. In the sense that it’s mainly Arab Muslim extremist that are aligned against the West, then it doesn’t much matter what happens in the rest of the Muslim world. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-islamic-reformation/439234/8 "2008-02-27T14:24:39Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] Turkey is very culturally different from the Arab world. In order for there to be a “reformation,” the culture needs to be open to different interpretations of the religion. So no, I don’t think this is going to spread to other Muslim countries - I think the Turks involved in this revision will simply be stigmatized as heretics. [/QUOTE] Um, sounds exactly like what happened to Christianity. The distant German princes supported reformation (largely for their own political purposes), while Rome and the core Catholic lands ignored their heresies. Really, the Protestant reformation didn’t spread beyond Northern Europe. The Mediterranean? Still Catholic. Eastern Europe? Still Orthodox. We’re just biased in favor of a reformation because the Protestant countries have wielded so much power in the West in recent centuries, and Protestantism was so influential in the founding of the USA. Ultimately, though, it hasn’t had all that much impact on how they do things in churches in Moscow or Rome or Dublin or Madrid. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-islamic-reformation/439234/9 "2008-02-27T15:11:35Z")
[QUOTE=toadspittle] Um, sounds exactly like what happened to Christianity. The distant German princes supported reformation (largely for their own political purposes), while Rome and the core Catholic lands ignored their heresies. Really, the Protestant reformation didn’t spread beyond Northern Europe. The Mediterranean? Still Catholic. Eastern Europe? Still Orthodox. [/QUOTE] But in response to the Protestants the Roman Catholic Church did reform itself to take the bite out of some of the harshest criticisms. Nobody sells indulgences anymore. I don’t see Wahabbists making concessions to better compete with the Turkish reforms. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-islamic-reformation/439234/10 "2008-02-27T15:20:11Z")
[QUOTE=Menocchio] But in response to the Protestants the Roman Catholic Church did reform itself to take the bite out of some of the harshest criticisms. Nobody sells indulgences anymore. I don’t see Wahabbists making concessions to better compete with the Turkish reforms. [/QUOTE] Not if the other discussion board I linked to is any indication. Well worth anyone vaguely interested in Islam giving it a read. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-islamic-reformation/439234/11 "2008-02-27T15:38:15Z")
[QUOTE=Menocchio] I don’t see Wahabbists making concessions to better compete with the Turkish reforms. [/QUOTE] But aren’t the Wahabbists the reformers in our analogy? They are, like the Protestants of the Reformation, trying to purify the religion of paganism, and going back to the original source texts and trying to create an “authentic” Muslim state, like the one they see existed at the time of the founding of the religion. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-islamic-reformation/439234/12 "2008-02-27T15:47:17Z")
[QUOTE=Menocchio] But in response to the Protestants the Roman Catholic Church did reform itself to take the bite out of some of the harshest criticisms. Nobody sells indulgences anymore. I don’t see Wahabbists making concessions to better compete with the Turkish reforms. [/QUOTE] Yeah, the RCC instituted some reforms-- after a few hundred years of the Inquisition. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-islamic-reformation/439234/13 "2008-02-27T16:35:59Z")
[QUOTE=Menocchio] But in response to the Protestants the Roman Catholic Church did reform itself to take the bite out of some of the harshest criticisms. Nobody sells indulgences anymore. [/QUOTE] But they certainly didn’t change everything that the Protestant reformers had had issues with- they didn’t get rid of the idea of purgatory, or allow each individual believer to interpret scripture on his or her own. For that matter, they didn’t get rid of indulgences, either- just the practice of buying and selling them. They clamped down pretty hard on dissent, as well… And don’t imagine all the nastiness was on one side. You could be killed or run out of the country for being a Protestant in a Catholic country, or vice versa. > [@Captain Amazing](#): > > But aren’t the Wahabbists the reformers in our analogy? They are, like the Protestants of the Reformation, trying to purify the religion of paganism, and going back to the original source texts and trying to create an “authentic” Muslim state, like the one they see existed at the time of the founding of the religion. We’ve got two different sets of reformers here- the Wahhabists and the Turkish reformers. Maybe they’re analogous to the Protestants and the Calvinists? ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-islamic-reformation/439234/14 "2008-02-27T16:43:37Z")
Islam doesn’t need a Reformation, it needs an Enlightenment. The issues addressed by the Christian Reformation–excessive centralization and a venal, worldly, and corrupt clergy–are mostly irrelevant to Islam. The problems which modern Islam _does_ share with Sixteenth Century Christianity–fanatical hostility toward non-believers and an unhealthy symbiosis between church and state–weren’t cured or even addressed within Christianity by the Reformation. In fact, in many ways they were made worse. They were cured by the Enlightenment, the French Revolution, and the Industrial Revolution. Islam needs modern equivalents of all of these, not a Reformation. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-islamic-reformation/439234/15 "2008-02-27T16:51:29Z")
[QUOTE=Freddy the Pig] The problems which modern Islam _does_ share with Sixteenth Century Christianity–fanatical hostility toward non-believers and an unhealthy symbiosis between church and state–weren’t cured or even addressed within Christianity by the Reformation. In fact, in many ways they were made worse. They were cured by the Enlightenment, the French Revolution, and the Industrial Revolution. Islam needs modern equivalents of all of these, not a Reformation. [/QUOTE] But would the Enlightenment have happened without all the nastiness associated with the Reformation having happened earlier? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-islamic-reformation/439234/16 "2008-02-27T16:54:55Z")
[QUOTE=Anne Neville] We’ve got two different sets of reformers here- the Wahhabists and the Turkish reformers. Maybe they’re analogous to the Protestants and the Calvinists? [/QUOTE] I don’t think the Turkish reformers are analogous to the Christian Reformation at all (remember, the Christian Reformation was fundimentally anti-rationalist). If you have to compare them to anything, they’re like the 19th century Higher Critics, who said that sacred texts have to be looked at in the historical and cultural context of the time that the texts were written. That’s the movement that led to both Liberal Christianity and Reform Judaism, and I think that’s who you can best compare them to, if you can compare them to any analogues within Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-islamic-reformation/439234/17 "2008-02-27T16:56:36Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] Remember that the Protestant Reformation led to nearly 200 years of some of the bloodiest wars Europe ever saw. I’m all for reforming Isalm, but I’m not sure I want to live through it. [/QUOTE] I’ve been telling people this for a long time. As much as we may castigate the Islamic world, especially in the M.E., for their intolerant regimes, we in The West were quite similar 500 years ago or so. And we had to have many, many wars before we set the borders such that people were mostly OK with them, and we got religion largely out of the body politic. Humans being what they are, I don’t see any reason to assume we can avoid that in the M.E. It’s certainly worth trying to avoid it, but let’s prepare for the worst-- and we have a pretty good idea of what that will look like by viewing our own past. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-islamic-reformation/439234/18 "2008-02-27T17:39:31Z")
[QUOTE=Anne Neville] But would the Enlightenment have happened without all the nastiness associated with the Reformation having happened earlier? [/QUOTE] Perhaps not, in the West. But Islam is already at the stage reached by Thirty Years War-era Europe–divided authority, internecine warfare, violent doctrinal disputes, murderous hostility toward non-believers. They’ve gotten to the post-Reformation bad–I wish they’d hurry up and get to the post-Enlightenment good. But **John Mace** is right, of course, that it took the West a long time. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-islamic-reformation/439234/19 "2008-02-27T17:49:38Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I’ve been telling people this for a long time. As much as we may castigate the Islamic world, especially in the M.E., for their intolerant regimes, we in The West were quite similar 500 years ago or so. And we had to have many, many wars before we set the borders such that people were mostly OK with them, and we got religion largely out of the body politic. Humans being what they are, I don’t see any reason to assume we can avoid that in the M.E. [/QUOTE] And don’t forget- we had Protestant-Catholic conflicts, including terrorism, [until 1998](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles). ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2008, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-islamic-reformation/439234/20 "2008-02-28T03:24:04Z")
It’s arguable that the secularism we take for granted isn’t due to religious reform; but rather is the stalemate reached after two hundred years of Protestant-Catholic bloodshed that neither side could win. Luther, Calvin and the Puritans could be just as fanatical and doctrinal as Catholics, in some ways even more so. I’m reminded of the alternate history implied in the novel The Golden Compass: the Protestants, instead of seceeding from the Catholic church, took it over in a radical political-theological coup. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-islamic-reformation/439234.md?page=2)