# An Islamic Reformation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 26, 2008, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-islamic-reformation/439234 "2008-02-26T16:56:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2008, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-islamic-reformation/439234/21 "2008-02-28T13:48:08Z")
Islamic countries need to observe seperation of Church and state. With religious zealots leading their governments (I know, insert Bush reference here\_\_\_), no good can come of it. Their people need to want change, demand it, seize control from the Imams that oppress them in various ways…and I don’t think it’s gonna happen. But it nice to see at least some people in Turkey at least taking a stab at reformation of the Hadiths. The Old Testament is littered with ancient practices that if we observed them now, we’d have some strange laws… …you know, like the “If a man steals your cow, then it is his right to rape your daughter” type stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Aquila\_Be](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@Aquila\_Be](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquila_Be)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2008, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-islamic-reformation/439234/22 "2008-03-01T08:07:30Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] Is this Islam’s Reformation beginning (or maybe Reclamation)? [/QUOTE] Rather than rely on the fantasists and wishful thinkers employed by the western press it might be better to actually find out what the Muslims involved have to say about the so called reformation: [Islamonline](http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1203757550116&pagename=Zone-English-News/NWELayout) > [@](#): > > “Make no mistake, we are not after modifying or revising the Hadith,” Mehmet Gormez, deputy director of the religious affairs authority Diyanet and supervisor of the project, told [IslamOnline.net](http://IslamOnline.net) in a phone interview. > “What we are actually doing is re-classifying, re-categorizing the Hadith and translating it into Turkish, no more no less.” and > [@](#): > > He shrugged off media suggestions that Turkey was re-writing the Hadith and creating a new Islam. > "They made too much fuss and took the project out of its real context. > “We are neither fashioning a new Islam nor dare to alter the fixtures maxims of Islam,” Gormez said emphatically. From the same article: - > [@](#): > > Several British newspapers on Wednesday, February 27, ran stories on the Turkish project . > The Guardian headlines the story as “Turkey strives for 21st century form of Islam.” > A day earlier the BBC reported the project under the headline “Turkey in radical revision of Islamic texts.” > Gormez also refuted claims they would and edit out some hadiths, especially about women. > “No Muslim in the right mind would dare delete any hadith or tamper with the Prophet’s heritage.” So the Guardian, the BBC and the rest of the western press having little wet dreams about an imminent Islamic reformation have proved themselves to be idiots, yet again. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2008, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-islamic-reformation/439234/23 "2008-03-03T11:11:03Z")
[QUOTE=Aquila Be] Rather than rely on the fantasists and wishful thinkers employed by the western press it might be better to actually find out what the Muslims involved have to say about the so called reformation: [Islamonline](http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1203757550116&pagename=Zone-English-News/NWELayout) [/QUOTE] deleted on reflection. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-islamic-reformation/439234/24 "2008-03-04T17:05:41Z")
[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil] Islamic countries need to observe seperation of Church and state. With religious zealots leading their governments (I know, insert Bush reference here\_\_\_), no good can come of it. Their people need to want change, demand it, seize control from the Imams that oppress them in various ways…and I don’t think it’s gonna happen. But it nice to see at least some people in Turkey at least taking a stab at reformation of the Hadiths. The Old Testament is littered with ancient practices that if we observed them now, we’d have some strange laws… …you know, like the “If a man steals your cow, then it is his right to rape your daughter” type stuff. [/QUOTE] How many Islamic countries are led by religious zealots? As far as I know, most have secular statist governments. They stay in power by pandering to Islamists and exaggerating foreign threats. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-islamic-reformation/439234/25 "2008-03-05T17:05:08Z")
Here’s a question: why do Westerners always assume that a “Reformation” will lead to liberalized religion? Was John Calvin less dogmatic than the Catholic Church had been? Did he loosen up his church’s stands on sexual morality? Did Martin Luther? Did Thomas Cranmer or John Knox? NO! In fact, Calvinists often had stricter, harsher views on a variety of subjects than the Catholic church had! So, why assume a “Reformation” of Islam would make the Muslims sweeter, more secular, and LESS strict in their observance of sharia? Indeed, a few observers of the Islamic world suggest that Islam has already HAD a Reformation, and that Arab fundamentalism has come out the winner. Pakistani and Indonesian Muslims USED to be the most liberal and tolerant of the world’s Muslims, but a huge number have no adopted the tenets of Wahabbism. You never stopped to wonder if “Reformation” could lead to a MORE dangerous brand of Islam, did you? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-islamic-reformation/439234/26 "2008-03-05T17:12:52Z")
[QUOTE=astorian] Here’s a question: why do Westerners always assume that a “Reformation” will lead to liberalized religion? Was John Calvin less dogmatic than the Catholic Church had been? Did he loosen up his church’s stands on sexual morality? Did Martin Luther? Did Thomas Cranmer or John Knox? NO! In fact, Calvinists often had stricter, harsher views on a variety of subjects than the Catholic church had! So, why assume a “Reformation” of Islam would make the Muslims sweeter, more secular, and LESS strict in their observance of sharia? Indeed, a few observers of the Islamic world suggest that Islam has already HAD a Reformation, and that Arab fundamentalism has come out the winner. Pakistani and Indonesian Muslims USED to be the most liberal and tolerant of the world’s Muslims, but a huge number have no adopted the tenets of Wahabbism. You never stopped to wonder if “Reformation” could lead to a MORE dangerous brand of Islam, did you? [/QUOTE] I guess we just want to see a form of Islam that is not so bat-shit insane crazy but I guess that is asking too much. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-islamic-reformation/439234/27 "2008-03-06T05:32:05Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] I guess we just want to see a form of Islam that is not so bat-shit insane crazy but I guess that is asking too much. [/QUOTE] Asking too much? No, not at all. At many points in history, the Islamic world was, arguably, a more rational and tolerant place than Christendom. Even a few decades back, the leading lights of the Islamic world were secular socialists like Nasser and Jinnah. That’s why I’m suggesting that the Muslim world has HAD a major Reformation since then. Unfortunately, that Reformation did not lead to a liberalized Islam, but to a more militant Arabist style of Islam. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-islamic-reformation/439234.md?page=1)